Game of Thrones with SPOILERS [Archive] - Online Roleplaying Forum

Azazeal849

05-24-2016, 09:16 PM

It was a pretty good episode all told, although I agree that it did seem a bit cold of Meera to sacrifice Hodor (and I can't decide if it's worse if Bran was still warging him at the time, or gave him his own consciousness back at the last moment). To me, it also seemed a bit excessive to have Hodor AND Summer AND Leaf pull almost identical "I'll hold them off!" sacrifices one after the other - and the latter two felt somewhat avoidable from the way they were staged. There are other ways to give characters heroic deaths than "covering the escape", after all (e.g. maybe Leaf could have tried to protect the Greenseer from the Night's King?). Otherwise it was a well-staged battle scene, with some good irony in how badly Bran's repeated screw-ups punish almost all of his allies. One question though: since when did the wights start hissing and snarling like stereotypical zombies? In most previous appearances I seem to remember them being silent, which is arguably creepier.

The Pyke plot was pretty well handled - like I predicted earlier they pretty much wrapped up the Kingsmoot in one scene, and if they wanted to bring Theon into the picture it worked fairly well. Euron is simplified from his book counterpart (and has no eyepatch!) but he works within the context of the show's version of the story. I was actually assuming that the priest was Aemon Damphair, so I was surprised when he offered no resistance to Euron's crowning (unless leaving him to recover on his own from drowning instead of, you know, giving him compressions counts). Though maybe that conflict will come in a later episode.

I was very glad to see Sansa giving Littlefinger a much-needed calling out. She almost seemed to be channelling the audience when she said "If you didn't know about Ramsey you're an idiot. If you did then you're my enemy." Not killing him does keep to Sansa's character - she isn't bloodthirsty - but I was kind of hoping she'd throw him in the Night's Watch's ice cells instead of just sending him away unharmed. I haven't decided yet if it's reasonable to claim that she doesn't know how he betrayed her father, or any of his other dodgy schemes. Likewise, I can't tell if the suspiciously convenient story of the Tullys retaking Riverrun is a Littlefinger lie, or a plot contrivance that we're supposed to just accept.

Not a lot to say about Dany's progress this episode - while it's nice to see her and Jorah reach an understanding, I'm wondering if he will fill in for Jon Connington from the books and be Dany's greyscale-infected crusader in Westeros or if he's now going off somewhere else entirely (maybe he'll meet Melisandre, and she'll burn away his wound a bit like Moqorro did for Victarion in the books...with a similar implication that it gives the red priest power over him...).

Meereen still seems to be on a slow burn while they move the characters into position.

Overall verdict: Generally impressed, especially by the insights into the world's backstory - now how much of the book will match?

Cfavano

05-24-2016, 11:39 PM

http://s33.postimg.org/97kxubwnz/FB_IMG_1464085293151.jpg

Crazywolf

05-25-2016, 12:05 AM

Unfortunately the walkers will probably now turn his corpse into a zombie.

Cfavano

05-25-2016, 02:36 AM

https://pics.onsizzle.com/Facebook-775c77.png

Crazywolf

05-25-2016, 02:52 AM

https://pics.onsizzle.com/Facebook-775c77.png

This is very true. XD

Azazeal849

05-25-2016, 08:30 AM

Not that we're all a bunch of Stannises here, but I think this stuff belongs in the "Game of Thrones silliness" thread.

Jarms48

05-25-2016, 08:48 AM

Not that we're all a bunch of Stannises here, but I think this stuff belongs in the "Game of Thrones silliness" thread.

I don't know, Stannis had some pretty hilarous one-liners. Even if they weren't intended. :P

Azazeal849

05-25-2016, 10:29 AM

I was thinking more in terms of that the rules (in terms of keeping to thread topic) must be followed.

Crazywolf

05-26-2016, 04:50 AM

Well the topic is Game of Thrones.

Soulio

05-26-2016, 05:57 AM

I was thinking more in terms of that the rules (in terms of keeping to thread topic) must be followed.

Is it really that big of a deal?

Azazeal849

05-26-2016, 10:23 AM

*Shrugs* Not really, it just seemed to me that there is already a separate thread dedicated to meme-y GoT posts.

Kris

05-26-2016, 12:38 PM

Actually I kinda agree Azazeal, I really rather we keep the gif and silliness to the other threads.

.Karma.

05-26-2016, 12:55 PM

I mean it's Crazywolf's thread and he's okay with the meme's. There are just so many GoT's memes they can be spread through all the GoT's threads!

Crazywolf

05-26-2016, 01:56 PM

As such I'm prepared to with a majority view on this. If a majority find memes bothersome to discussion I can go back and edit the opening post. though right now opinion seems split quite evenly down the middle.

Azazeal849

05-30-2016, 08:10 AM

6.6 review:

Well, that was an interesting episode.

I had a certain feeling that the High Sparrow was bullshitting people last week with his long-winded origin story and its inconsistencies with his earlier statements ("I left my shoes behind" vs "I gave them away", "I was a wine merchant" vs "I've never liked wine"), but I wasn't sure if this was deliberate or one of those J.J-storytelling plot holes we weren't supposed to notice. After this week it seems that Sparrow is definitely playing the Game (in the show at least) although he must have some serious mind-control powers if he's supposed to have brainwashed Tommen and Margeary. Tommen might be impressionable, but something rings false about Margeary not being too smart for this. Assuming it's not just another unlikely plot twist, I would guess that she's either had her arm twisted to protect Loras, or she's actually playing one level higher than the Sparrow himself. I did find it funny though that after Tommen and Margeary step down and announce the church-state alliance, no-one seems to consider where Loras is (and use it to re-escalate the confrontation).

Speaking of unlikely plot twists, it seems that Littlefinger really was serious about the Tullys taking back Riverrun. I now suspect that this is going to dovetail with Jaime's book plotline, and he'll resolve the siege (and twist poor Edmure's arm) but then bump into Brienne, who in turn will be forced to choose between her loyalty to Sansa and her loyalty to Jaime. It was interesting to see Cercei (who is, to be fair, far more sympathetic than her book counterpart) consciously sending Jaime away, confident in her own ability to Get Shit Done.

Sam and Gilly's time at Hornhill felt a bit like filler, but at least it was handled well. Stealing Randall Tarly's sword was a satisfying little "fuck you" (although I'm certain it'll come back to bite them in a couple of episodes). Also, doesn't Gilly look pretty with her hair curled?

North of the Wall we finally have Coldhands turn up - the show's version of him at least. I can see why they recycle the known character of Benjen even if GRRM has apparently said that that's not who he is (or is that another fake-out?). Although what I found most entertaining was the split-second clip of Aerys Targaryen telling Jaime to "burn them all!" in amongst Bran's visions.

Meanwhile, Dany and company are riding east at the speed of plot and are apparently about a week (LOL!) away from Meereen. Not sure what Drogon was doing hiding out in that slightly cheap-looking desert set. Was he just waiting around for Dany that whole time? And while that ending speech was inspiring and all, I can't help but think that Dany's rekindled desire to get back to Westeros is going to lead to a lot of innocent deaths (and some not-so-innocent ones - I don't think it's a coincidence that "1000 ships" is both what Dany needs and what Euron Greyjoy just happens to be building with the intention of sailing them right at her).

No sign of Sansa and Jon this week - I'm not sure what their next move will be unless Davos goes to treat with the Manderleys as per the books. Will he still demand Rickon's rescue as his price of support? Go smuggle him out, Davos. And get Melisandre to shadow-shank Ramsey Bolton while you're there.

Crazywolf

05-30-2016, 04:08 PM

With the High Sparrow plot I don't know if Margery is pretending or not but Tommen just comes over as unbelievably stupid. His stupidity is just really annoying. I also find it hard to accept how based off just 2 conversations with the High Sparrow he takes the High Sparrow's side over his wife and mother. If he was really that easily persuadable then I think the one controlling him would be someone like Cersei who is able to see him all the time.

At the moment I'm trying to not let the inconsistencies get me down and just try to enjoy the epic storytelling and epic visuals. On that score there's really noting else around on tv that compares to it.

.Karma.

05-30-2016, 04:32 PM

To me it was implied that he has had more than just the two conversations that are shown on screen. I'm not a Tommen hater like it seems most of the rest are. I looked it up and he is only around 16 years old. Of course he is impressionable and has no real mentor, he's just kind of feeling his way through everything and just wants to do the right thing to make everything okay. He saw a way to get his wife back, and his wife encouraged it, so why would he not resolve what seemed to be an ongoing problem? Does anyone else not remember their logic being a bit skewed at 16?

I wasn't a fan of the episode overall. It seemed a bit like filler, but leading up to good things to come.

BURN THEM ALL!

Crazywolf

05-30-2016, 05:08 PM

I didn't realise he was only 16, I guess that makes some difference. In that case however I'm surprised the Lannisters and Tyrells didn't try more to stop him visiting the High Sept. Among other things who was to say Tommen wouldn't be taken hostage there himself? I am surprised no-one really made this point to him or used it as an argument to try and stop him.

Kris

05-31-2016, 12:12 AM

The whole sparrow part feels like some kind of cheap soap opera to me, even the whole dragon deal and "copy" "pasting" the scene with the Danni burn out of fire, taking over the datheraki... I dunno feels like it is going in very straight line.

Also, was Ben the best card they could pull there? or was it in the books like that too?

Azazeal849

05-31-2016, 09:45 PM

The books haven't yet revealed who Coldhands is / was. Benjen Stark seems like a reasonably strong possibility, but apparently GRRM has ruled that out. Even so, they haven't made much of the other possibilities in the show (have they mentioned the Night's King, the lord commander of the Watch who apparently married a white walker?) so I can see why the show-writers would choose a familiar character rather than introduce a new one at this late stage of the series.

Crazywolf

05-31-2016, 09:58 PM

On the show The Three-Eyed Raven refers to the leader of the White Walkers as the Night's King. I don't know if that is the same character as you mean.

Kris

05-31-2016, 10:03 PM

I feel like they are going to end the show soon.

TheBarbarian

05-31-2016, 10:15 PM

The next one is supposed to be the last though 13 episodes long.

Kris

05-31-2016, 10:31 PM

You mean season 7 gonna be the last?

TheBarbarian

05-31-2016, 10:32 PM

That's what I've heard yes.

Kris

05-31-2016, 10:52 PM

To be honest, it feels like they are quick to close edges now... so...

Crazywolf

05-31-2016, 11:01 PM

This article says there will be eight, but the final 2 will be shortened-seasons. http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-end-date-season-8-1201752746/

Jarms48

06-01-2016, 08:30 AM

Also, was Ben the best card they could pull there? or was it in the books like that too?

The books haven't yet revealed who Coldhands is / was. Benjen Stark seems like a reasonably strong possibility, but apparently GRRM has ruled that out. Even so, they haven't made much of the other possibilities in the show (have they mentioned the Night's King, the lord commander of the Watch who apparently married a white walker?) so I can see why the show-writers would choose a familiar character rather than introduce a new one at this late stage of the series.

http://i.imgur.com/FfI1goA.jpg

This was the image in question. If I recall it was an original manuscript sent for review to one of GRRM's publishers. My memory is somewhat hazy on this though.

To be honest, it feels like they are quick to close edges now... so...

I have a feeling that episode 8 of this season will be Bastard Bowl - where Jon Snow & Co fight the Boltons at Winterfell. The other episodes of this season will probably just be resolving the other plots. I can see the final episode of this season teasing us with the attack on the wall. Which will be resolved next season.

This article says there will be eight, but the final 2 will be shortened-seasons. http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/game-of-thrones-end-date-season-8-1201752746/

That's what I've seen as well.

Crazywolf

06-02-2016, 12:53 AM

I am fascinated to discover how it all ends, I just hope the ending will not be a disappointment.

I was interested in Dany's comment a few episodes back about breaking the wheel, it suggests to me she intends to take down the power of the great houses and put in place a different kind of regime.

Azazeal849

06-02-2016, 11:36 AM

On the show The Three-Eyed Raven refers to the leader of the White Walkers as the Night's King. I don't know if that is the same character as you mean.

The Night's King in the book is a former lord commander who apparently married a White Walker and then disappeared off north. While this could potentially be the origin story of the show's Night King, it hasn't been raised as a possibility by any of the characters yet (IIRC). More likely I think we're supposed to assume that the leader of the Walkers is the man who was turned by Leaf in Bran's flashback (was it the same actor?).

I was interested in Dany's comment a few episodes back about breaking the wheel, it suggests to me she intends to take down the power of the great houses and put in place a different kind of regime.

If so, I'll be interested to see how hypocritical this comes across as. At the moment she seems to want to take the Iron Throne, which on the face of it is simply placing herself back at the top of the "wheel" rather than actually changing anything. Peasants in a feudal system are also slaves in all but name if you think about it.

That said, Show Dany is presented as more unambiguously good and "right" than Book Dany - or rather her opponents, mainly in Slaver's Bay, are much less nuanced - so in the show's timeline it would be a legitimate ending for her to ascend the throne (or the chair of some sort of proto-parliament) with all the people cheering her name. Assuming that there isn't a twist that removes her from the running one way or another.

Jarms48

06-02-2016, 12:03 PM

That said, Show Dany is presented as more unambiguously good and "right" than Book Dany - or rather her opponents, mainly in Slaver's Bay, are much less nuanced - so in the show's timeline it would be a legitimate ending for her to ascend the throne (or the chair of some sort of proto-parliament) with all the people cheering her name. Assuming that there isn't a twist that removes her from the running one way or another.

There's one book theory that could prevent Dany from sailing to Westeros, with her instead looking to the East. This is based upon the "five forts", the forts walls are slabs of "fused black stone" almost a thousand feet high, and were built thousands of years ago to protect Esso's from "Demons of the Lion of Night". This theory is:

- That Westeros and Esso are actually connected forming a large super continent, with Esso eventually snaking upwards towards the unexplored ice-fields/arctic that continue Northwest of Westeros. Where the White Walkers actually descended down from the West (towards Esso), thus resulting in the creation of the five forts. With the rise of the White Walkers Dany will be called to fight them, simultaneously coming down towards Esso, as the Red Priests of Esso believe her to be Azor Ahai.

It's not a very popular theory, and I don't support it, but it's interesting. It brings another meaning to "a song of ice and fire". Where both stories are connected and run in parallel, with similar heroes, Jon and Dany, rising to fight a common foe but never actually meeting.

* * * * *

I'm starting to think I'm the guy that reads and finds every interesting theory under the sun and just wants to share them. *sweat*

Crazywolf

06-02-2016, 02:37 PM

(was it the same actor?).
To be honest White Walkers all look the same to me. (XP)

Peasants in a feudal system are also slaves in all but name if you think about it.

It depends where and when. If you mean serfdom then yeh it's practically slavery. But there were other times peasants had a lot of bargaining power.

That said, Show Dany is presented as more unambiguously good and "right" than Book Dany - or rather her opponents, mainly in Slaver's Bay, are much less nuanced - so in the show's timeline it would be a legitimate ending for her to ascend the throne (or the chair of some sort of proto-parliament) with all the people cheering her name. Assuming that there isn't a twist that removes her from the running one way or another.

Yeh could be something of that kind. I just hope whatever happens they do it in a way that feels believable.

There's one book theory that could prevent Dany from sailing to Westeros, with her instead looking to the East. This is based upon the "five forts", the forts walls are slabs of "fused black stone" almost a thousand feet high, and were built thousands of years ago to protect Esso's from "Demons of the Lion of Night". This theory is:

- That Westeros and Esso are actually connected forming a large super continent, with Esso eventually snaking upwards towards the unexplored ice-fields/arctic that continue Northwest of Westeros. Where the White Walkers actually descended down from the West (towards Esso), thus resulting in the creation of the five forts. With the rise of the White Walkers Dany will be called to fight them, simultaneously coming down towards Esso, as the Red Priests of Esso believe her to be Azor Ahai.

It's not a very popular theory, and I don't support it, but it's interesting. It brings another meaning to "a song of ice and fire". Where both stories are connected and run in parallel, with similar heroes, Jon and Dany, rising to fight a common foe but never actually meeting.

* * * * *

I'm starting to think I'm the guy that reads and finds every interesting theory under the sun and just wants to share them. *sweat*

Hard to keep track of what's canon and what's fan-made but I've seen maps online showing Essos with a north coast. If you google 'Westeros map' you will get examples.

Crazywolf

06-06-2016, 04:04 AM

Well now that was a good episode. I pretty much enjoyed all of it. Loved seeing Riverrun again, glad to see Margery hasn't really gone over to the Sparrows.

One matter confuses me though. is Margery still being held in the Sept or is she now living back in the palace?

.Karma.

06-06-2016, 04:13 AM

I believe she's back in the palace because they mentioned her not sharing her husband's bed.

Crazywolf

06-06-2016, 04:37 AM

Yes you are right they did. The nun must follow her all day then.

.Karma.

06-06-2016, 05:09 AM

Yes that is why the grandma said she had no power there and that her men would bash her if commanded to do so

Crazywolf

06-07-2016, 12:13 AM

I sometimes wonder of Game if Thrones is a bit too Stark-orientated. As such I find it interesting to wonder how things might panned out if George RR Martin had written the first book with more pov characters from different houses. It does balance out a lot more in the later series but arguably you still have more in House Stark than any of the others.

Jarms48

06-07-2016, 08:52 AM

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/785/984/0f4.jpg

The hype is real.

Crazywolf

06-07-2016, 06:22 PM

It's a shame really Gregor is no longer his real self. If Sandor kills him now it's not really him anymore just a walking zombie programmed to follow instructions.

Azazeal849

06-14-2016, 10:14 AM

Given how much of a vicious psychopath the original Gregor was, the zombie version might actually be an improvement!

I have to say that I was a little disappointed with 6.8, although there are caveats for a few parts in that they might be salvaged depending on how they play out:

I was surprised to see Beric Dundarrion still kicking around. I guess it makes the Brotherhood (and Sandor joining them) a bit more unambiguously good than if they'd been working for crazy zombie Catelyn. Then again, Sandor has history with Beric that he wouldn't have had with Cat, so maybe that's another reason why they chose that route.

The extended chase between Arya and the Waif was decent, although I'm still waiting for an explanation for Arya's ability to run after multiple stab wounds, and the ending (or rather the lack of one) seemed like the writers were going "Fuck it, there's no way the viewers believe we'll actually kill Arya, so let's not even bother".

I'm still trying to work out why Jaqen smiled and let Arya go (cunning plan, or just plot convenience?). And what was the point of the scene where Arya talked about sailing west, as well? Was she still dopey from the poppy milk at that point, or did she genuinely forget the mission that's been driving her for about 5 seasons?

There were some nice character scenes with Jaime / Brienne and Jaime / Edmure, but we didn't really learn anything about them that we didn't already know. I also expected more from Riverrun. Why did Brienne have to run away? Didn't Jaime promise to let her and the Tully army march north? And why didn't Edmure mention it? They'd better do so next week, or this will have been a pretty pointless plot. Also, the Tully soldiers being blindly loyal to Edmure seemed a little convenient, especially when he then just said "surrender" and not "surrender and we can march north to help my niece and rescue Rickon, who is technically the King in the North now". I know that Show Edmure is pretty useless, but if he had done the latter I might at least buy the rest of the Tully soldiers agreeing with him.

Kings Landing? Eh - the Sparrow is clever for getting Tommen to abolish Trial by Combat, and Margeary is clever because I now think her plan is to play along until she can get Cercei killed, but that's complicated now since Cercei's trial is seemingly going to be side-by-side with Loras'. I assume since they wasted the Riverrun plot, Jaime will be coming back to Cercei in time for the final episode and protecting her. He'd better hurry.

Varys' secret mission, and Qyburn's rumour, were irritating in their blatancy as plot hooks, but we'll just have to see where they go.

Some people liked the scene where Tyrion gets Grey Worm and Missandei to lighten up, but I found it a bit boring. I'm pissed at the ongoing portrayal of the Harpies / Slavers as one-dimensional backstabbers, because if you're going to have an anti-war story you need to show peace actually working on occasion! And Dany turning up in the last 2 seconds and not even saying anything was...odd.

I don't know if Yara and Theon will turn up next week, but they'll be in a weaker bargaining position if Dany's Dothraki have already saved the city (also, can she really stop all those crazy reavers from sacking Meereen rather than liberating it?). A lot of people are not at satisfying ends yet, and they've only got two more episodes to round things off.

Crazywolf

06-17-2016, 12:04 AM

Given how much of a vicious psychopath the original Gregor was, the zombie version might actually be an improvement!

Oh definitely. I'm just saying it won't be as satisfying for Sandor to kill him as it might have been when he still had his own self-awareness.

I'm still trying to work out why Jaqen smiled and let Arya go (cunning plan, or just plot convenience?).

Personally I found it very inconsistent. Having already sent the Waif to kill her there's no reason why he suddenly lets her off.
And what was the point of the scene where Arya talked about sailing west, as well? Was she still dopey from the poppy milk at that point, or did she genuinely forget the mission that's been driving her for about 5 seasons?
I believe she wanted to go somewhere so far away The Waif would never find her.

There were some nice character scenes with Jaime / Brienne and Jaime / Edmure, but we didn't really learn anything about them that we didn't already know. I also expected more from Riverrun. Why did Brienne have to run away? Didn't Jaime promise to let her and the Tully army march north? And why didn't Edmure mention it? They'd better do so next week, or this will have been a pretty pointless plot. Also, the Tully soldiers being blindly loyal to Edmure seemed a little convenient, especially when he then just said "surrender" and not "surrender and we can march north to help my niece and rescue Rickon, who is technically the King in the North now". I know that Show Edmure is pretty useless, but if he had done the latter I might at least buy the rest of the Tully soldiers agreeing with him.
The deal Jamie offered was that if the Blackfish would surrender the castle he could leave freely with his men. Blackfish refused so at that point the deal was dead. Then Jamie makes a different deal with Edmure saying if you go in and get them to surrender you can go and live at Casterly Rock with your wife and son.

The bit with Brianne is a bit vague though as I see it Jamie let her in on the grounds she would talk Blackfish into giving up but they didn't seem to make any agreement for her to leave again if he said no.

Kings Landing? Eh - the Sparrow is clever for getting Tommen to abolish Trial by Combat, and Margeary is clever because I now think her plan is to play along until she can get Cercei killed, but that's complicated now since Cercei's trial is seemingly going to be side-by-side with Loras'. I assume since they wasted the Riverrun plot, Jaime will be coming back to Cercei in time for the final episode and protecting her. He'd better hurry.

I believe Margery's entire goal, aside saving herself, is to save Loras. If she shows support to the High Sparrow then it is more likely Loras is spared. She said to Orleanna that if Loras confesses then he will be stripped of his title but otherwise spared and set free. I believe this is her goal, to see this happen. No doubt she does despise Cersei for what she did but I don't think at this time it is her main priority which I see as protecting Loras.

Some people liked the scene where Tyrion gets Grey Worm and Missandei to lighten up, but I found it a bit boring.
Agreed. very boring.

I don't know if Yara and Theon will turn up next week, but they'll be in a weaker bargaining position if Dany's Dothraki have already saved the city.

Well true. but she will still need ship to reach Westeros.

Kayser

06-17-2016, 12:27 AM

I'm glad that the Hound is back and that the brotherhood without banners is still active. This show has killed off too many good characters.

Crazywolf

06-20-2016, 04:46 AM

Arg that last episode irked me. Part of it goes back to the previous episode where it was blatantly clear most of the northern houses wouldn't support Sansa. Now I can't blame Sansa for wanting to try and fight anyway but Jon is supposed to be the one that sees the bigger picture ie The White Walkers. Given most houses are either against or refusing to fight he should have talked Sansa into leaving Westeros with him. Fighting a war would only cost the north manpower needed to fight the White Walkers. But given that they did choose to fight this brings me to my second point, if Sansa knew Littlefinger was coming surely it would have made sense to wait for him. And then the battle itself I can't believe Jon charging single-handedly like that against the Bolton army. I know he was angry about his brother dying but it felt way out of character for him to lose his senses like that, more so that Sansa had said the night before that Ramsay would try and play him and also that in her mind he would not let Rickon live.

I love this show for it's epic storytelling, it's themes, it's characters, the amazing locations and visuals, but there are times the story could be delivered in a way that feels a bit more logical.

Lastly I am curious to find out the reasoning behind in Littlefinger's latest maneuver as I never understood his previous logic in giving Sansa to the Boltons for which he seemed to get nothing at all back. No doubt his motive in helping her will soon be revealed.

Kris

06-20-2016, 08:23 PM

Jon is emotional. She needed a way to trick the man who plays with others.

I thought it was really mean how she was willing to let go of her little brother for it to work, but she showed brilliant tactic. It was the only way to trick Ramsay. Jon would have given away the plan probably, he is too emotional.

It was a risky bet, and I'm surprised it worked out, to be honest. I still think she is very self-centered, and once again playing with lives of people as it suits her... but most of the chars are like that... so...

The one thing I focused about was the part where she lingered at the death of Ramsay. It reminded me the part from the first episode where Bran is told to not look away as a ruler put another to death.

Crazywolf

06-21-2016, 11:26 PM

I actually found that bit pretty dark. The fact she was able to stand and watch that showed much she had got used to seeing bad things and how much her own sensitivity had been numbed.

After all the horrible stuff that happened to her I think Sansa is the one character I most want to have a happy ending.

Griff

06-21-2016, 11:59 PM

I ship Yara and Daenerys now *has nothing important to add to the conversation*

ｒａｂｂｉｔ

06-22-2016, 11:24 PM

As tumblr user holysansastark said: daenerys/yara is simultaneously the ship i never knew i needed and everything i ever wanted from this trash show

Crazywolf

06-23-2016, 08:28 PM

To those here following the show who don't think it is all just trash I think it could be interesting to try and make predictions on how-it-all-ends.

Here is my own theory based purely on speculation

Personally I think Cersei's trial will cause Tommen to finally stand up to the Sparrow possibly after some prompting from Jamie. This will cause Tommen to die of course and king's landing will be in the control of the Sparrows when Dany arrives to kick their butt. Then the White Walkers will come. The Night King will use some magic or other to nerf Dany's dragons. Jon will kill the Night King but die in the process. Everyone will mourn Jon but the kingdoms will be saved.

.Karma.

06-23-2016, 10:11 PM

Cersei plans on blowing shit up. Also I think at some point the Hound will fight the Mountain. I don't think Dany's dragons are going anywhere.

Griff

06-23-2016, 10:33 PM

Maybe when she said trash she didn't mean like actual trash. Trash like a guilty pleasure maybe.

Is it bad that I'm really only looking forward to the Starks eventually fully reuniting? It may never happen, but it's really the only reason why I get excited about each episode. That or maybe anything involving the Greyjoys.

Kris

06-23-2016, 10:51 PM

I suspect Tommen will die. I dunno why but I feel like Margaery will have something to do with it. And I think it will have something to do with her brother as well.

There will be some zombie/white walkers things in the end for sure.

Hound meeting Arya? The sand sisters showing up?

Dunno what else.

Crazywolf

06-24-2016, 04:03 AM

Ah yeh I forgot about the Sand Snakes. Cersei and Jamie will definitely still want to kill them (assuming Cersei and Jamie both survive the High Sparrow). Possibly when Dany arrives the Sand Snakes will refuse to accept her rule and so she uses her dragons to take them out.

Felwether

06-24-2016, 02:24 PM

I'm predicting that Cersei will burn King's Landing along with Tommen and the High Sparrow. The Sand Snakes will reappear and fight the Mountain and either Cersei or (more likely I think) Jamie will die.

Oh also, Littlefinger is totally going to try to get Sansa to marry him and there'll be a showdown between Ser Davos and Mel.

Crazywolf

06-24-2016, 07:05 PM

I think probably Cersei will die since if Tommen dies Cersei will feel she has nothing left to live for.

Good point about Melissandre. I think one of the biggest plot-holes this season is Davos failing to ask her what happened to Shireen. It took him until episode 4 to even think to ask and then Brianne interrupted them and he immediately forgot again.

Crazywolf

06-27-2016, 04:54 AM

Well now that was a big explosion. I have kind-of mixed emotion how the season ended. To see Cersei take her revenge on the High Sparrow was satisfying though on the other hand I'm sad to lose the Tyrells. :/ If I have to be picky Tommen jumping out the window felt a bit excessive. Also Cersei didn't seem as distraught about it as I'd have thought she would be. Finally why is everyone proclaiming Jon lord of the north instead of Sansa? Taking a bastard as the heir when a legitimate child is still alive seemed an odd break with custom - twice as odd when Bran might still be alive as well.

Kayser

06-27-2016, 07:18 AM

King of the north!

.Karma.

06-27-2016, 10:59 AM

A male heir, even if a bastard will always come before a woman. Also, as far as anyone else knows Bran was killed by Theon Greyjoy, he even showed their 'bodies'.

Griff

06-27-2016, 11:56 AM

That was a great episode.

Crazywolf

06-27-2016, 03:21 PM

A male heir, even if a bastard will always come before a woman. Also, as far as anyone else knows Bran was killed by Theon Greyjoy, he even showed their 'bodies'.

But everyone knows that isn't true because they found Rickon. Jon also knows Bran survived because Sam and Gilly met him.

Also in Westeros a bastard has no right of inheritance unless there are no true-born kin, the single exception being cases where a bastard has been legitimised by the king.

.Karma.

06-27-2016, 04:32 PM

Yes, Sam and Gilly met Bran, but Sam took an oath not to tell Jon I believe? So, it's not unlikely that Bran would be dead and Rickon alive.

Crazywolf

06-27-2016, 05:03 PM

In that case they would still know because Theon told Sansa. And even if Theon hadn't told her the possibility Bran was still alive ought to be enough in itself that they would seek to investigate that factor before either Jon or Sansa claimed the title.

.Karma.

06-27-2016, 05:21 PM

I think they will seek to find Bran. Again, Theon said he didn't kill them, but it's very likely with the times they are in that Bran is dead. I still don't think I heard Sansa tell Jon that Bran was not in fact dead, just that Rickon was alive.

He didn't declare himself King of the North... The northerners did. The look that Sansa gave Littlefinger also may have meant a little something.

P.S. I totally called Cersei lighting everyone up.

AngelDellaNotte

06-27-2016, 09:38 PM

People would be more likely to rally around a warrior who has proven himself in battle then a teenage girl. Yes, Jon is a bastard but he is more qualified then Sansa to lead. He was Commander of the Night's watch afterall.

Azazeal849

06-27-2016, 09:48 PM

I would buy that argument, except everybody saw Sansa bring the Vale army sweeping down and saved Jon (and what was left of his army). The victory was almost entirely hers. I suppose that Jon and Sansa may have talked beforehand, and had Sansa tacitly step down so as to checkmate Littlefinger, but given how the whole not-telling-Jon-about-the-Vale-army-and-getting-far-more-people-killed-than-necessary thing was just brushed off, I'm not sure I can give the writers that much credit. :P

Cercei's revenge was satisfying in its audacity, even if it's a little disappointing to see whatever game Margeary was playing cut short. Good music though.

I'm calling bullshit on LF's "rule with Sansa at his side" claim, if only because it makes giving her to Ramsey last season even more nonsensical.

What was Jon's logic in banishing Melisandre? Is she supposed to fight the Walkers down south if they get past Jon? It seems like a bad decision to both lose Melisandre's support AND piss off Davos (though he seems fine again by the end of the episode, chanting "King in the North!" with all the rest). I suppose Melisandre can now bump into Jorah somewhere.

Sam's scene seemed a bit out of place (and no sign of Randyl Tarly...yet). I was actually expecting one of the Sand Snakes to be there waiting for him, but at least we got to see his little round face light up at the sight of all those books.

Arya seems to have borrowed Book Manderley's cookery book, although where did she get her new face? Did she borrow / steal it from the House of Black and White before she left?

Also, how did Varys get on that ship at the end?

Crazywolf

06-27-2016, 10:07 PM

I think they will seek to find Bran. Again, Theon said he didn't kill them, but it's very likely with the times they are in that Bran is dead. I still don't think I heard Sansa tell Jon that Bran was not in fact dead, just that Rickon was alive.
It seems kinda odd that Sansa would tell him Rickon is potentially alive but not say the same for Bran. If she did say that it's kinda odd.

He didn't declare himself King of the North... The northerners did. The look that Sansa gave Littlefinger also may have meant a little something.
He could still have said that Bran was the rightful heir not him.

P.S. I totally called Cersei lighting everyone up.
This is true. XD

People would be more likely to rally around a warrior who has proven himself in battle then a teenage girl. Yes, Jon is a bastard but he is more qualified then Sansa to lead. He was Commander of the Night's watch afterall.

Maybe but still it seems odd no-one among them would raise the question of Sansa being the rightful heir and it also doesn't address the question of Bran. All Jon's army saw Rickon so they know that at least one of the two bodies burned by Theon wasn't a Stark.

Crazywolf

06-27-2016, 10:24 PM

Also a fun fact: based on the lore in the books the next person in line to the throne would actually be Jamie Lannister. (Not that I think Jamie would actually want this job mind.)

Jarms48

06-28-2016, 05:13 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnyseAZ4xU8

Yes. Hahaha.

P.S: He says Sandra instead of Sansa because of a prior episode he released, it makes sense in context.

Crazywolf

06-28-2016, 08:05 AM

I normally find those guys over-picky but this week I agree with nearly all of it. The whole Cersei as queen thing baffled me as well, as in who that's left is supporting her and why. I am guessing we are meant to assume she has bribed or won over the Goldcloaks of the citadel - but some form of confirmation on this would have been nice.

Kris

06-28-2016, 10:54 AM

Varys can Teleport? @_@ ?

AngelDellaNotte

06-29-2016, 03:33 AM

Lol! Kris was wondering the same.

Back to the Sansa / Jon debate, to sound a bit sexist Jon is a male and Westeos is a male dominated world.

.Karma.

06-29-2016, 03:40 AM

I actually read a message from one of the people who works on the show, I can find the link. Viserys did not teleport, but actually the storylines between the different characters do not run side by side. They said they tried with the first season and it was really difficult, and if they would have done such this time we would have had many episodes with main characters just travelling on a ship. :)

Crazywolf

06-29-2016, 04:28 AM

Lol! Kris was wondering the same.

Back to the Sansa / Jon debate, to sound a bit sexist Jon is a male and Westeos is a male dominated world.

It is, but according to law & custom bastards can't inherit land off their parents unless legitimised by the king. So technically the line of succession would be Bran then Sansa. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Laws_and_Customs

In the episode Sansa voluntarily concedes it to Jon on the battlements. the other lords however just seem to pick Jon of their own accord. though I suppose he could have told them off screen.

I actually read a message from one of the people who works on the show, I can find the link. Viserys did not teleport, but actually the storylines between the different characters do not run side by side. They said they tried with the first season and it was really difficult, and if they would have done such this time we would have had many episodes with main characters just travelling on a ship. :)

So was it that there is a time gap between Varys visit to Dorne and Cersei becoming Queen, or is it that there is a time gap from Cersei being queen to Dany setting sail?

I am wondering also how long it takes to sail from Dorne to Slavers bay.

.Karma.

06-29-2016, 04:42 AM

Here is the article I read, but it's not the only one I've seen either :)

http://moviepilot.com/posts/3982252?utm_source=fb-stream-post&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=got-producer-clears-up-the-mystery-about-characters-traveling-so-fast-the-timelines-don-t-line-up

Crazywolf

06-29-2016, 05:35 AM

Cheers will take a look. :)

Kris

06-29-2016, 11:39 AM

.Karma.

06-29-2016, 01:33 PM

I posted the link so you could read it i fyou wanted to.

Crazywolf

06-29-2016, 03:10 PM

This year it has been strange for me watching the show weekly. I don't know if next season I won't just wait til it ends then watch the full series all at once. With so many characters to follow it usually takes a few episodes for them to really do anything.

Kris

06-29-2016, 05:30 PM

I posted the link so you could read it i fyou wanted to.

I did read it.... Why do you think I didn't?

.Karma.

06-29-2016, 05:42 PM

I was just letting you know?

Dnafein

06-29-2016, 09:20 PM

https://66.media.tumblr.com/b5e879581f9834261b91c0ccdfb753bc/tumblr_nim2z1c1t11tlcar6o1_400.gif

Also I wish to point out again that Cersei only cares about herself.

Crazywolf

06-29-2016, 10:03 PM

Also I wish to point out again that Cersei only cares about herself.

Right now yes. but I think she cared about her children when they were still alive.

AngelDellaNotte

06-30-2016, 12:24 AM

Arya has to be my favorite character, the lovable little sociopath.

https://s31.postimg.org/3w4vlpdor/13557852_1152331514810734_3424664734689963335_n.jp g

Crazywolf

06-30-2016, 12:45 AM

XD Arya is certainly a great character.

Dnafein

06-30-2016, 01:00 AM

Right now yes. but I think she cared about her children when they were still alive.

And yet anytime her children were happy and she wasn't the cause she took it away from them. Her daughter was happy in Dorne, send Jamie to get her. Her sons were heads over heels for Margery, take it personally and work towards her downfall/death.

A parent who cared for their kids will let them find happiness, not strip it away from them becausenthey are not the source. Cersei liked to think she cared for her kids, and liked to present that image but lets be honest, Cersei only cares bout Cersei.

Azazeal849

07-01-2016, 08:46 AM

Yep. Cercei is a textbook narcissist (although it's played up and played down depending on how sympathetic she's supposed to appear in a given episode) and narcissists make terrible parents. And after that last episode, with her almost numb reaction to Tommen's death, it's entirely possible that she's lost the plot completely.

Jaime's "what have you done?" look from across the seemingly endless gulf of the throne room says everything, really.

Crazywolf

07-01-2016, 04:50 PM

I disagree. In the show she is genuinely upset when both Joffrey and Mycella get killed. She talks constantly about protecting her children and that is the reason she sends Jamie to fetch Mycella.

Azazeal849

07-02-2016, 05:52 AM

The two aren't mutually exclusive. A narcissistic parent is still capable of genuinely loving their children (to be otherwise would make them a sociopath instead of a narcissist) but can revert to manipulative / harmful behaviour when stressed or challenged. That sounds like Cercei to me. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_parent)

Like I said though, fictional characters can play up or play down their flaws more reliably than real people (contrast show Cercei's conversation with Robert about how and why they went wrong, and her twisted but well-meaning advice to Sansa about how to deal with Joffrey's faults, with her Ramsey-esque sadism at the end of season 6).

Crazywolf

07-02-2016, 05:34 PM

Well I'm definitely not denying she is narcissist. only reason I disagreed with your comment is because it sound like you were agreeing with Dnafein.

.Karma.

07-02-2016, 05:53 PM

And yet anytime her children were happy and she wasn't the cause she took it away from them. Her daughter was happy in Dorne, send Jamie to get her. Her sons were heads over heels for Margery, take it personally and work towards her downfall/death.

A parent who cared for their kids will let them find happiness, not strip it away from them becausenthey are not the source. Cersei liked to think she cared for her kids, and liked to present that image but lets be honest, Cersei only cares bout Cersei.

Yes this! Mind you, I actually like Cersei as a character, but she definitely completely selfish.

Azazeal849

07-03-2016, 09:02 PM

Well I'm definitely not denying she is narcissist. only reason I disagreed with your comment is because it sound like you were agreeing with Dnafein.

Ah I see. I was at the time, but now I think about it Cercei called Myrcella back because of the threat she received from the Sand Snakes (as you said), and her tug-of-war with Margeary is fuelled by the sort of paranoid, sort of genuine fear that Margeary is trying to "steal" him from her (I won't hold that against Margeary though, because ambition itself isn't a sin, and most signs point to her being a competent ruler who wants to teach Tommen the same - and everyone but Cercei can see that Cercei isn't the best role-model for Tommen).

I may be getting mixed up with book Cercei, who regularly threatens Tommen when he doesn't do what she tells him.

Dnafein

07-03-2016, 11:34 PM

I disagree. In the show she is genuinely upset when both Joffrey and Mycella get killed. She talks constantly about protecting her children and that is the reason she sends Jamie to fetch Mycella.

And how many people do you know who get genuinely upset when they lose their job or car? Just cause she cares when loses that which she sees as something that makes get better then everyone else doesn't mean she cares about that item. Just what it does for her.

Griff

07-04-2016, 12:22 AM

After seeing her "confess" in front of Unella, can anyone really not call her narcissistic?

Crazywolf

07-04-2016, 02:30 AM

And how many people do you know who get genuinely upset when they lose their job or car? Just cause she cares when loses that which she sees as something that makes get better then everyone else doesn't mean she cares about that item. Just what it does for her.
Well by that definition she only needs one child not three since she only needs one to sit on the throne to let her remain as royalty. At the same time it is clear she can't control Joffrey and Tommen would be easier to manage but yet she still shows grief when Joffrey is killed.

After seeing her "confess" in front of Unella, can anyone really not call her narcissistic?

Actually having read a lengthy definition of narcissism I've decided I don't think this is her character. Personally I'd sum up Cersei in the following way. To start she feels resentful because her mother died and her controlling father only sees her as a pawn. Then she is resentful because Robert makes it clear he still loves Lyanna and is pretty much a rubbish husband. All these things feed into her character and make her a bitter person. If she has a object of admiration it isn't herself it's Joffrey. At the start she sees Joffrey with a mother's bias and sees him as perfect. When she is eventually forced to face the reality that Joffrey is a monster the blow is crushing and she feels ashamed of her failure as a mother to raise him better. When Mycella is killed later she admits she has done bad things but says seeing the goodness in Mycella always made her think she herself can't be wholly bad. Whether from bitterness or innate nature she is selfish and driven by her own wants though I don't see this as fuelled mainly by self-admiration.

Crazywolf

07-07-2016, 09:29 PM

Hi all. Just posting to let you know I created a GoT group. http://role-player.net/forum/group.php?groupid=295

.Karma.

07-10-2016, 01:47 PM

Thought you might find this interesting: http://moviepilot.com/posts/3991642?utm_source=fb-stream-post&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=a-clinical-psychologist-has-just-diagnosed-mad-queen-cersei-s-personality-disorder-in-agame-of-thrones

**Yes, I know it's just a reddit poster, but I like what he says

Lara

07-10-2016, 02:12 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbTO8-tWc4U

Crazywolf

07-13-2016, 03:54 PM

Cfavano

09-02-2016, 11:48 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wMV0DRTZfw

ｒａｂｂｉｔ

07-11-2017, 04:11 PM

Soooo who's excited for Sunday?

Griff

07-11-2017, 04:21 PM

*unintelligible screeching*

Crazywolf

07-11-2017, 04:46 PM

Yeh kind-of, though I find the first episode of a season is often just setting the scene for things to come. Probably it'll be a couple of episodes before stuff really happens.

Crazywolf

08-02-2017, 09:26 AM

So anyone been watching?

Dnafein

11-01-2017, 01:42 PM

Haven't finished watching this but I think it goes here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsAU9qBRjNY

Dnafein

01-16-2019, 10:07 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA38GCX4Tb0

Sorry for the dp.

Leanna

01-17-2019, 12:14 AM

Nice.

I’m going to Northern Ireland in March. So many film locations here.

The writers actually studied literature in Dublin, too :)

Merry

01-17-2019, 12:47 AM

I seriously CANNOT wait! Hbo recently played the entire series of the course of a few weeks, I dvr'd it all and have been binge watching it.. god I love this show!

And binge watching you see SO much more that I actually missed the first time around. Of course, I still want that last book! Any word on where / when that is coming?

Dnafein

01-17-2019, 03:46 AM

No offical date for it but George has posted to his blog that he's working on it.

Dnafein

02-05-2019, 12:12 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fhOItB0zUM

Sorry for the double post had to share this for those who missed the superbowl

Lunia

02-05-2019, 12:40 AM

That was Awesome!!! Couldn't watch the Superbowl with it starting like after 3am here for me, and having to be up at 7am for work. Not a good combo.
Anyway, seriously can't wait for the release of the last season! I don't want it to end but I also want to know like, right now what's going to happen!

Kris

02-05-2019, 12:47 AM

This was gold XD

Dnafein

04-28-2019, 01:28 PM

Theon dies protecting bran as the night king and the white walkers close in on the 3 eyed raven. Jon who joined them in the godswood finds himself out numbered. Either through Dans belief that the fights lost, Jon's shouted suggestion or Bran screaming "burn them all" while warging Drogon burns the Godswood. Killing everyone there except Jon and the nights king. This is the big reveal that Jon is a targaryen and the Prince who was promised; because his valyrian steel blade will be glowing and giving off heat. Jon and the nigh job fight leaving him triumphant.

Jamie if he lives is going to join Jons Kingsguard along with Brienne. The red woman will show up an episode or two down the line with an army for the Prince who was promised and that is what will make the battle for kings landing evenish.

Merry

04-29-2019, 12:16 AM

DNA.... really?! Interesting thoughts. I can't wait to see if it happens that way!

Dnafein

04-29-2019, 02:46 AM

Nope, was right on a few thing but wrong on a lot of others as well. All i can say is good girl.

Leanna

04-30-2019, 10:10 PM

I personally am really disappointed in the last ten minutes of the last episode. For a lot of reasons.

Kris

04-30-2019, 10:13 PM

I was disappointed with all of this episode XD

There were really cool and high moments, but it felt like a lot of pieces that are not connected at all and a lot of stupid narrative decisions.

Leanna

05-01-2019, 04:29 AM

Yeah... come to think of it, I was a bit disappointed in a good portion of it... but the last ten minutes were so extra crap, that I forgave the mediocrity of some earlier parts.

Horrible, horrible resolution to the NK character arch ;(
He deserved better. Geh.

Kris

05-01-2019, 10:37 AM

Azazeal849

05-02-2019, 07:32 PM

I agree. I keep saying that you can feel the missing hand of the original writer. After season 4 the series feeling like a high budget fan-fiction XD A lot of weird decisions, horrible resolutions and closing of plot holes.... It feels like the series is becoming a husk.

D&D are screenwriters in the JJ Abrams mould, in that they always prioritise emotions of the moment before coherent plot. Now of course that’s not inherently bad - it's even the preferable form of storytelling to a lot of people, but you’re right to point out that since Season 5 it’s become incredibly sloppy and disregarding of established characters. Even the foreshadowing is very heavy handed and obvious these days.

And all of that is inherently bad. When plot holes and character inconsistencies are no longer hitting people after the fact, and instead viewers are actively going “huh?” in the middle of a scene, then you’re in deep shit because it’s going to take people right out of your story.

I’m going to file a lot of things from the last episode (e.g. how Jorah got to Dany, where the dragons went, how Arya got to the NK) under this kind of poorly executed emotion-over-logic approach and say no more about them, but to discuss everything else I'm going to need spoiler tags.

Technical expertise - firstly, credit where credit is due: the sheer scope, scale and technical execution of this battle episode were phenomenal. Even allowing for the practically unlimited budget they have to play with nowadays, the production values in this episode were very high. The music was great (especially during the NK's final, slow walk). I also really like the long takes where they switch from following one character to following another as they cross paths, a neat little trick which was also present in the previous episode.

Concepts and variation - these were also pretty good, considering that zerg-rushing undead can quickly get visually boring. The one-by-one bridging, the swarming wall climb and the claustrophobic interior fights all felt distinct enough to be interesting. Arya's horror-movie chase in the middle third was good for shaking things up, though to my mind it went on perhaps a little too long.

The Dothraki charge - Knowing a few things about real-life warfare is always a curse when watching cinematic battles, because it’s forever messing with your suspension of disbelief (e.g the Battle of the Bastards, although my lack of enjoyment for this otherwise stunning battle had more to do with Jon and Sansa’s incomprehensible character decisions rather than the questionable battle tactics). That said, I found this sequence visually stunning and it perfectly captured the sense of defiance melting into ominous dread as all the sword-lights steadily winked out.

Obviously it was utterly, suicidally stupid - even someone with no interest in battle tactics is going to call bullshit on opening a (defensive!) battle by sending your cavalry straight into an enemy horde that they can’t even see, and more to the point who you know are going to send them right back at you. If I had my tactical hat on I would ask why they didn't keep them back to circle / clear the walls - or hell, have them sweep down on the NK when he showed up in the Godswood, since luring and killing him there was allegedly their entire plan. Nevertheless it was a beautiful and haunting sequence, and if they really wanted to fix it all they had to do was show one panicked protest from Dany / Jon / Tyrion to show that the attack was unplanned, and that someone recognises that it was a rash, impetuous decision - this wouldn’t even have undercut the creeping horror of the lights going out.

Plot armour - GoT has not lived up to its "anyone can die" credentials for many seasons now. One of the most egregious examples of this was last season when Jon went north to capture a wight with a bunch of main characters and a few Wildling redshirts, and it was blindingly obvious who was going to die and who was going to live barring the one obligatory "shock" death. So I shouldn't have been surprised by the same thing happening here, but my god was it noticeable. Most of the deaths that did happen were simply cutting characters who had no obvious role after the NK plot was done. Not to say that some of these deaths weren't handled well, but it still felt like a letdown after an entire “our last day on earth” episode that was about as subtle as a sledgehammer.

Lyanna - I actually thought she was gone when the giant first swatted her aside...which I wouldn’t even have minded because of it’s brutal suddenness, but in the end taking down the giant was equally satisfying. A good ending, though ultimately a minor character and a "safe" death.

Mel, Beric and Edd - predictable casualties since they were all intrinsically tied to the White Walker plot, and had no real reason to be around afterwards. Of the three deaths Edd’s was notably shocking and sudden, which is not a bad idea for an episode like this, and it's somewhat disappointing that no-one of more note met the same fate.

Jorah - as soon as he shows up to save a stranded Dany you know he’s dead, because he was always going to die defending her. The predictability stole a bit of the emotional resonance for me, for all Emilia Clarke's tears.

Theon - probably the best done of the deaths (not unexpected since he’s D&D’s favourite character). The emotional resonance is definitely there even if the flow of events around it has a few plot holes.

The Night King - despite all the plot armour, I was still a little bit uncertain at the end if someone was going to jump in or if he was going to kill Bran and send the few survivors fleeing. Unfortunately he’s been flat as cardboard since his intro, so there was no way that his end was going to be fully satisfying unless one side had an incomplete victory and he hung around for another episode or two and actually spoke (though it's been clear for a long time that D&D were not bothered with developing his character beyond the basics). A silent, sinister and unknowable villain is okay, but it felt a bit unsatisfying after so much build up to end it all here, in one episode.

And now on to the survivors...

Jon and Arya - I'm not actually upset that it wasn’t Jon who eventually fought and killed the NK. This does raise questions about prophesies and why he was allowed to come back from the dead - though you could argue that he was still pivotal in uniting the living, and moreover the books make a big deal of the “one true king” trope being BS and that prophesies will predict whatever people think they will (even the show acknowledged this with Varys’ king-priest-merchant story, back when the show was good). I don’t think D&D cared about any of this of course; they were going for emotion and subverted expectations, and since Arya’s arc in this episode was well done (despite heavy-handed foreshadowing from Mel) that’s not a bad thing on this occasion.

Sam - I sort of get why D&D would want to use a main character to show the terror that the undead invoke in everyone, but I feel like using Sam for this purpose is doing him a disservice. Sam in the show has not been a coward for some time now, especially when he’s standing up for people he loves - why turn him back into one for just this episode? The fact that he's barely fighting back as the wights swarm him only serves to make his plot armour even more obvious.

Brienne, Jamie, Tormund, Gendry and Pod - aside from cutting back to them every now and then to show them still struggling under the same dogpile of wights (plot armour again!) the show didn’t seem to know what to do with them. After the first couple of times it lost its effect because it became clear they were all due to survive this episode.

Sansa - I feel like they could have done more with her, although that's a recurring gripe of mine. A large part of why Sansa’s character has been so mishandled in general is that D&D don’t seem to think a character can be truly heroic in a TV show without being a fighter. Even if the show itself has demonstrated the value of figureheads and how morale can fail when a commander leaves (Battle of Blackwater). And once down in the crypts she was once again strangely useless. Now, Sansa isn’t and never has been a fighter, so I’m not particularly mad that she didn’t even try to use the dagger Arya gave her, but we know from past seasons that Sansa's main strengths are empathy, organisation and a touch of cunning ruthlessness - couldn’t the Lady of Winterfell have shown her leadership by talking to someone other than Tyrion?

Tyrion - Tyrion himself has of course been suffering for a while, mainly because D&D are not as good as GRRM at concocting smart plans for him to enact. Like Sansa he seemed strangely useless, and it's not like he's completely helpless in a fight (even if he doesn't ride around with an axe like he does in the first book, we've seen him handle a crossbow and smash someone's head with a shield). As he himself points out, why isn't he up top with Sansa putting his mind to some strategic use?

Sandor - was never going to die, because Cleganebowl. You know, I actually don’t really care about his fight with Gregor (I find his relationship with the Stark girls more interesting).

Grey Worm - where did he disappear to halfway through the episode? Also (tactical nitpick) why were he and the rest of the Unsullied placed outside the walls? And why were these veteran soldiers rolled over so quickly? Of course, it does set the interesting new dynamic of Dany having lost most / all of her forces except her dragons (and one of those is now Jon’s), and thus she is likely going to have to deal with being far less dominant in future episodes.

Davos - another MIA, seriously where was he for most of this episode? Granted, he's not exactly a fighter, but again D&D don't seem to have any interesting ideas for things for these sort of characters to do during an action episode. Even though they clearly do understand the value of bringing in a quieter, more contemplative or more harrowing scene every now and then to break up the adrenaline.

On the subject of missing things - no White Walker fights? No-one being faced with the wight of a former friend, not even after the NK explicitly raises all of the battle's casualties? These absences are hardly deal breakers for the episode, but they could have been interesting - especially since D&D clearly don't mind deploying other well-worn cinematic tropes throughout the episode.All in all a bit of a “meh” episode, especially in the context of two previous episodes (indeed seven seasons) worth of buildup. Three episodes left to round everything off.

Crazywolf

05-02-2019, 08:12 PM

I've actually given up this season. I respect people who have stuck with it but last season was so bad I just can't watch them ruining the story any more. Probably when the season ends I'll read a review to see what happened.

Kris

05-02-2019, 08:49 PM

Agreed and I want to add

I don't think you need to have great knowledge of tactic to understand that most of this battle was planned very poorly. I did notice they kinda plan to cut off all of the supporters of Dani for maybe increase something that will force her to betray Jon or corner her some

While Arya ending part was cool, it didn't make any sense in the term of... HOW THE HELL DID SHE GET SO CLOSE WITHOUT ANYONE NOTICING... just when few drops of blood a scene earlier were more than enough to cause even a simple "zombie" attention

Sam being a coward was so unbecoming of him, and really horrible. I think Theon should not have died in this battle. There goes all the saying of "what is dead cannot die again".

Mel's death, altough poetic and beautiful was unfitting to this woman who seemed to always be within inner struggle and self preservation. Will someone like her actually die willingly?

The battle was too short, and the propecy about shutting blue eyes in Arya case was never meant to be for the NK but it I guess it's okay they needed to have some closing to it. Which leaves the "green" eyes part to Cersi maybe?

Both Sansa and Tyrion had beautiful moment where I thought they were going to storm out and attack or simply commit suicide. The crypt part should have been much more horrible. The "second" wave of zomies was nearly unseen

What the hell was Bran doing?! And why the NK was just so... badly done... and all his generals around him? My god, what a waste of plot and ideas

There were a lot of parts with Jon that didn't make much sense to me

Grayworm should have been in the front (even though I still don't understand why the unsullied needed to keep everyone alive and be used as meat shield). He should have died, him being moved to the back row was really unbecoming of his role

And I think all the other parts you already covered. It's weird I really couldn't enjoy this episode at all. There were so many moments that just weren't in sync.

What's more only after I read review did I remembered that Sandor was in shock because of the fire around him. I wish they made it more obvious because it totally made no sense to me XD

And was I the only one thinking that this siege was missing boiling pots?

Azazeal849

05-05-2019, 09:40 PM

What the hell was Bran doing?! And why the NK was just so... badly done... and all his generals around him? My god, what a waste of plot and ideas

I was actually thinking about this the other day - small fixes that could have improved the logic or the drama of the episode. For example what if:

There’s a shot of Theon shouting “Where the fuck are they?” to show that the few dozen archers being left to defend Bran themselves was not part of the plan...

Mel lights up the arakhs of the Dothraki who are waiting to charge down into the godswood, which they do...only to come up against the lethal White Walkers (so you can see them in a fight, and maybe even still have that shot of all the lights going out, perhaps from Theon’s POV)...

As the Night King reaches Bran, he outplays him by warging something that creates an opening for Arya to leap in and attack. A dragon burning away all the White Walkers and Arya leaping through the flames would look epic, though it raises questions (if it’s a live dragon then Bran could warg it again in future...if it’s the dead one then how did he break NK’s control?). Alternatively, what if undead Hodor were to suddenly come smashing in? The explanation would be that he’s warged him previously so is already linked, and Hodor defending Bran one last time would have a kind of sad poetry to it.

But I’m just making shit up here, really.

And was I the only one thinking that this siege was missing boiling pots?

Maybe pouring real flaming oil was too hard / too dangerous to do as a practical effect?

In-universe I guess you could say that they didn’t have a large supply on hand or that it was made too thick by the cold...but then again they use fire arrows and presumably there’s some accelerant on the barricades too. I dunno.

ｒａｂｂｉｔ

05-06-2019, 06:18 PM

What'd we think about last night's episode?

All I have to say is Ghost, Rhaegal, and Missandei were done wrong

also,

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGFHBxfXgAAQxLV.jpg

Azazeal849

05-06-2019, 09:14 PM

All I have to say is Ghost, Rhaegal, and Missandei were done wrong

Agreed, even if direwolves “belong in the north”, why did Jon leave Ghost, his only constant companion since season 1, without so much as a goodbye?

And I had a bunch of questions after the naval scene, first of which was where did Dany even get ships after they were all burned at Casterley Rock? Moreover why choose to split her forces and sail half of her army down when Cersei’s only advantage over her is at sea and she’s been burned twice already by Euron using exactly this tactic? If you’re not going to use Bran for reconnaissance then at least keep a proper lookout with your dragons. Speaking of which why is Jon so conspicuously not taking Rhaegal...oh, that’s why.

So the “new prince of Dorne” has declared for Dany, wonder who he is? Will he send any help?

Sansa has had many character defining moments...why the holy hell, in-universe or out, would Sandor pick her rape as a talking point? I know he’s not exactly tactful but she’s one of a very short list of people he actually likes. And to define a character’s development in terms of rape is pretty insulting.

Why doesn’t Jaime apologise and explain why Tyrion is so sore about his first wife when he goes to see Brienne? Or was he just that anxious to get laid?

Why is no-one else around when Bronn corners Jaime and Tyrion?

Why wasn’t Davos with the fleet?

How did Euron’s fleet shoot at the dragons if there were some big old rocks blocking them from view (or if they did have a clear shot, why weren’t they visible to Dany herself much earlier)?

How did Dany and co find out that Missandei got captured, and why did Cersei consider someone who is (as far as she knows) a mere translator such a great bargaining chip?

I guess it’s on Yara to crush Euron and his fleet.

Why isn’t Euron wondering how Tyrion already knows about Cersei’s pregnancy?

Hmm Dany can’t attack the city without killing civilians...I wonder why Arya has suddenly chosen to leave her family and go south (without saying bye to Sansa, no less)?

What the hell is Jaime’s motive going south? To kill Cersei himself? To protect his unborn child? Why does he feel the need to spare Brienne’s feelings by being a dick, or conversely why does he suddenly consider himself irredeemable again?

Kris

05-06-2019, 09:31 PM

Exactly what you said Az, and I'd like to add my points

I feel like they forced the "anti Dani" narrative. So now Sansa and Arya knows better than anyone? They starting to act like Katlyin who was very much against outsiders. Outsiders and not family are evil. God, it's so forced.

After everything that been around with the rising of Dani to power, when everyone going against her just feels so forced, and I'm sorry, but I can't help but seeing Sansa as just meddling as Cersi is... No, his sisters don't know better, and it feels like they are trying so hard not to work along.

Jaime's leaving moment was weird, because he knew they were heading to kill Cersi so why leaving now when tides of war changing... There goes his whole development to trash...

again this feels so weird in narative, and ideas. The boat scene was cool but so weird... I don't think it's possible to shoot off dragons like this without some backlash on sea battle with those ships and the sea so calm and... bah... I'm just annoyed with this narrative.

Azazeal849

05-06-2019, 10:37 PM

I feel like they forced the "anti Dani" narrative. So now Sansa and Arya knows better than anyone? They starting to act like Katlyin who was very much against outsiders. Outsiders and not family are evil. God, it's so forced.Yeah, I know they butted heads over Northern independence a couple of episodes ago, but fighting together against the WW must have earned her a little bit of trust. And with half of Dani’s army gone and Rhaegal now bonded to Jon, they don’t have to worry so much about her simply subjugating them if she took a fancy to the idea.

Varys got one thing right though - regardless of whether Cersei’s using the civilians in King’s Landing as human shields rather than protecting them, if Dani storms the city with fire and blood she won’t be popular. I am actually semi-interested to see where this goes, with Dani hot-blooded and pissed off, Varys clearly plotting something (though god knows what - surely he doesn’t want to keep Cersei on the throne either), and Arya hopefully arriving soon to offer an alternative to siege or storm.Speaking of anti-Dani, did anyone else find the scene where she calls out Gendry as Robert’s son before legitimising him a bit odd? Presumably they’re trying to fake-out that she’s going to be hostile with him, but it would make so little sense after all he’s done that I never seriously thought she would - and so doing that right before raising him to lord of Storm’s End felt weirdly like she was pranking him for no good reason.

That said, I did really like the following shots showing how isolated Dani was, with all the Northerners partying together and cheering their own heroes above her - it would have been even more interesting if they hadn’t retconned her loyal forces from “wiped out” to “half left”, leaving her dragons as her only trump card (and then finding out that Cersei has a counter to them!).

On the subject of fake-outs, all the rising tense music did as Tyrion approached the castle wall (why is it such a desert outside...?) was convince me that Cersei was not going to shoot - even though if anyone’s going to take the chance to mow down her enemies with scorpions while they’re lined up for a parlay, it’d be Cersei!Also can Yara please kill Euron next episode? He’s not that interesting a character, just a hero-killing diabolus ex machina in the mold of S5/6 Ramsey Snow.

EDIT - I just found this rather excellent alternate ending for episode 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7m6HP95EDM

Dnafein

05-08-2019, 06:35 PM

So I have avoided this thread because I had been unable to watch the most recent episode now that that's done there's something that everyone has commented on that needs addressed.

Okay let's get this part out of the way. Yes this was a very stupid move given the estimated number of enemies, and what they were. The damage a light Calvary charge of that size would have done to living opponents would like have been devastating to the point the forces outside the wall would like have been able to hold longer, perhaps even win. That same charge against an army of dead the same size as their own likely would have turns the way of the Dothraki. As neither happened we can only look at what did; And what Did happen was a major tactical mistake Dany's armies are going to continue paying for.

It was also the ONLY order you could give to the Dothraki present. They would have refused an order to defend the walls, or even to hold position; Either would have been seen as an insult. An order to be a coward, would be an order no Dothraki would follow and that is exactly what such orders would be seen as. Their culture puts a lot on bravery, on charging your enemy and showing no fear. Holding back, or defending a reinforced position are signs of fear to the Dothraki. Thus their contempt for the cities and forces they face. So if they were going to be involved in the Battle of Winterfell that was how they would be. It wasn't so much a poorly made decision by a tactician as it was a result of a cultures beliefs and their impact on that culture.

Had they anyone honestly believed they could win without every blade they could get there hands on, those 100,000 Dothraki Screamers would have likely been elsewhere. Personally, once word of Last Hearth reached me I would have evacuated the non combatants. Sent them to the ships in White Harbor to head to the Iron Islands Asha was retaking; And I would have sent the Dothraki as escort; Those I didn't send south to scout the paths the army would take afterwards.

Oh yeah dunno if it was addressed.

They came from Asha/yara and or Dragonstone, you know the island fortress that was the ancestral seat of the Targaryens and the place Dany down a healthy amount of the last season.

Those were probably the same ships used to move her unsullied from there to the north

Azazeal849

05-08-2019, 09:13 PM

I'm not going to add spoiler tags to episode 3 stuff as we are now two weeks on, but I'll still try to keep it vague:

The damage a light Calvary charge of that size would have done to living opponents would like have been devastating to the point the forces outside the wall would like have been able to hold longer, perhaps even win.

The best reference we've got for a Dothraki charge is the loot train battle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_-wyiJgzm8) from Season 7. Disregarding the sections where Drogon blasts holes for them or the Lannister soldiers run before contact, then we see them barrelling through a three-deep shield wall (which I think is fair) at 1:30, but then again at 2:40 you can see other sections of that same three-deep wall holding the charge at bay so I dunno.

Jorah also mentions a Dothraki charge being turned back by a hedgehog of Unsullied at Qohor, but of course the Unsullied have much longer spears and much better discipline than the Lannister soldiers shown in the LTB.

I don't doubt that a Dothraki charge (even in the loose formation they seem to favour) could still simply bowl over a good few ranks of wights, but given that they can't even see what they're charging into...

Come to think of it, I'm surprised more horses didn't stumble or fall on uneven ground during that pell-mell charge through the dark.

It was also the ONLY order you could give to the Dothraki present. They would have refused an order to defend the walls, or even to hold position; Either would have been seen as an insult.

Probably the most plausible explanation I've seen, but even allowing for the Dothraki as a point-and-go, one-shot weapon, I still feel that Dani could have convinced them to wait until they could see the enemy (tactical effect: they charge down as the wights run into the infantry, and there's a combined arms battle instead of an unsupported piecemeal charge) and / or to charge the godswood (for the honour of killing the Night King no less). Even if the majority of the Dothraki found the latter unacceptable, she might have been able to give the task to her bloodriders.

They came from Asha/yara and or Dragonstone, you know the island fortress that was the ancestral seat of the Targaryens and the place Dany down a healthy amount of the last season.

Those were probably the same ships used to move her unsullied from there to the north

I'm not 100% sure of the stated losses, but one fleet (Greyjoy sails) was destroyed on its way south in 7.2, and another (Targaryen sails) was destroyed after landing the Unsullied at Casterley Rock. After that I think Dany's forces moved across land for the rest of the season, implying that they lacked ships - though I guess there could have been some others still holed up at Dragonstone that sailed north to collect what was left of her army later?

I assumed that the ships in this episode couldn't be Yara's firstly because of the sails (Targaryen, not Greyjoy) and secondly because they receive a message that Yara has "retaken the Iron Islands" implying that she is still there. I suppose the timeskip to them on the boats could have covered Yara sending them ships, but it would be one hell of a plot hole (they either have to sail all the way round Westeros to the north, or all the way round to the south during which Euron's fleet could have intercepted them).

The GoT wiki states that Theon had only "three ships" to his name when he rescued Yara - although I don't remember this being stated in the episode, and I suppose Yara could have gotten more once she reached the Iron Islands.

Kris

05-13-2019, 09:16 PM

Wow, I was so busy in taking all the things and saying that's BS to actually feel sad for anything happening around.

Everything just doesn't make sense any more, everyone is not playing according to how they are... It's sad to see this show going off like this :/

I really didn't feel sad, or any emotions at all. I just wanted it to be done with. I'm very disappointed with the writing of this episode.

Leanna

05-13-2019, 10:39 PM

GAAAAAAAAAH.

#plzsavethisstorygrrm

Azazeal849

05-14-2019, 12:21 AM

Cinematography - First off, truly awesome direction. Less of a battle like BoB and more of a massacre like Hardhome, with everything reflecting this - the combat is not cool, only brutal, with limbs and heads hacked off and burned men screaming on the ground. All coupled with low shots of people fleeing through claustrophobic streets or cowering with loved ones, accompanied by fire, falling rubble and hellish ash-shrouded wastelands. Unfortunately, like BoB the visual feast was undercut for me by utter bewilderment at the character decisions that set these events in motion. One thing that’s stuck with me since I heard it in a YouTube analysis video the other day is that D&D don’t want to see their actors act per se, they want to see them emote. Hence lots of non-verbal scenes and close ups of faces, which adds to the visceral but slightly empty feeling of the recent episodes.

Varys - Our favourite bald spymaster has gone from distrusting Dany for no particular reason last episode to having legitimate reason to think she wants to burn everyone, and just in case you hadn’t clocked that he was marked for death, there’s a short empathy scene of him being nice to a child. Incidentally, Dragon must have a Bunsen burner nozzle to regulate his fire, since he can torch Varys in one scene without singeing anyone else nearby, and disintegrate whole sections of castle wall in the next. That shot of him looming out of the dark behind Dany was pretty awesome though.

I’m not sure how Tyrion found out about Varys’ betrayal (unless he was pre-empting it), let alone why he would immediately rat out the man who’s been his ally for much longer than Dany, and moreover who (in the show at least) is the least biased in serving the interests of The Realm. Judging by the way Dany threatens Tyrion next scene, and what happens later, damn did he bet on the wrong horse...

Jaime and Tyrion - This scene, a pleasing mirror to Jaime setting Tyrion free back in season 4, was probably the best character scene of the episode, though my god have they eviscerated Jaime’s character arc. Not only do they prove that, yes, he hasn’t grown out of his toxic relationship with Cersei after all, he also loses his striving to become a true knight who protects the innocent, by making no visible effort to keep his promise to Tyrion and ring the bells, thus saving thousands of innocents, in favour of simply making his way doggedly to Cersei.

The Battle - Now, I’ve already mentioned my understanding that this episode is framed as a horrible slaughter rather than a battle, but damn if Cersei shouldn’t be asking for her money back on the Golden Company. Captain Strickland wins an award for most hapless commander. All those bolt throwers also seem to have taken a nosedive in effectiveness since last episode, almost begging the question of why Dany didn’t press home her counterattack on Euron’s ambush instead of leaving her fleet to be massacred.

Dany - Dany looking all haggard in her first scene is effective if extremely blunt foreshadowing of how the rest of the episode would go. The books do somewhat imply that Dany is going to go “dark” at least for a time, after trying so hard to be a mother to her people (symbolically locking away her dragons before finally flying away on one, forgetting the name of the child Drogon killed, the hallucinations of her brother that she has “forgotten our house’s words: fire and blood”), so I was expecting something like this to happen. But it feels...rushed.

Throughout the show, until a couple of episodes ago, Dany was clear in her desire to not be just another tyrant, and though she could be impulsively heavy-handed (crucifying the masters, burning the Tarlys who wouldn’t kneel) she never targeted unambiguous innocents. They even wrote the Slavers as backstabbers who go back on their peace agreement with her, to leave her morally unstained in killing them. We’ve not seen her display paranoia until now either. Her character arc doesn’t flow easily from what we’ve seen before. Add to that the fact that she’s not as isolated as the writers want us to think she is (Dorne supports her, and Yara on the Iron Islands, and probably the Reach too) and that flipping out over someone spurning her advances is Cersei’s thing not Dany’s (yeah, Jon spreading the secret of his parentage was dumb as hell, but there are mountains of evidence that Jon doesn’t want the throne, and every reason to believe that he’d step down for Dany if his identity ever went public). Even if we take Dany’s decision to reject the surrender as an impulsive one, it still makes no sense. She looks up at the Red Keep, the symbol of her stolen birthright, the place where her true enemy is standing...but instead of burning that place to the ground, she destroys the entire city around it? If she still had even a shred of an end goal in mind, she wouldn’t do the one thing that undoes everything she ever fought for and was guaranteed to turn everyone against her.

Now I’ll freely admit, Dany is terrifying when she’s out for revenge, but her wrath was always targeted. When she lost Drogo (perhaps to deliberate deception, perhaps to overly high expectations on her part) she didn’t kill the whole Lhazarene tribe. When her close friends were butchered in Qarth, she didn’t avenge herself on the common people. She was betrayed again and again in Meereen, but never slaughtered indiscriminately. Even after her capture by the Dothraki (her likely turning point in the book), she didn’t burn all of them. And she didn’t execute all of Tarly’s men for their leader’s defiance.

It’s an unexpected twist, sure, but a pretty nonsensical one. Maybe D&D were going for a theme of revenge being a futile endeavour that burns people up - Grey Worm goes all out for revenge too, presumably for Missandei’s sake, while Sandor quite literally burns for his, and doubtless Dany won’t survive the finale - but I’m not sure we weren’t just being served a plot twist.

Jaime - When Euron leapt off his disintegrating ship, you just knew he was going to be back for a final one on one, and my money was on Yara...but instead he bumps into Jaime, a character he has no particular history with. Judging by the dialogue, I almost wonder if it was an attempt to make Jaime a “kingslayer” twice without him having to kill Cersei (the repetition of history being a big theme in the books). I was a little disappointed that Jaime didn’t beat Euron to death with his golden hand, but I did laugh at Euron’s frustrated sigh when Jaime drags himself up, as if he’s remembering that a single stab is never enough to down a main character. Not to mention his final words - “I’m the man who killed Jaime Lannister!”...I could almost hear Jaime shouting back “Suck it, Euron, I won’t die until it’s dramatically appropriate!”

Arya - A relative high point of the episode was Arya’s journey with Sandor; much like Dany’s endgame, I can believe that ultimately turning away from revenge and reclaiming her identity will be her path in the books too (identity being another of ASoIaF’s big themes), though again the execution feels rushed. She finds her family again, only to leave on her final mission, only to be talked out of it in a two-minute scene once they get there - while her scene with Sandor is good, her closing her eyes as she resolves to let revenge go almost feels like she’s thinking “you waited until we got here to tell me this!?”

Of course, her being in King’s Landing gives us a PoV to follow as we stagger through the chaotic, apocalyptic scenes in the streets. I note that Arya’s plot armour is weakest at her right temple, as she takes a gash here in the exact same place as in episode 3. The scenes are however very nicely shot, and her connection to Sandor is emphasised by the swifts cuts of the two of them being battered around and then by her finding his horse in the final scene. That final scene is, incidentally, beautiful - with the empty street, the post-apocalyptic clouds of drifting ash, and a somber reprise of the show’s main theme that turns into the symbolically appropriate Rains of Castamere as the credits roll.

Sandor - With his relationships with the Stark girls concluded, there was nothing left to do but have that final showdown with his brother. My worry that a battle with an undead shadow of Gregor would be unsatisfying was alleviated somewhat when Gregor rebelled against his creator; clearly, there’s enough of the Mountain left in there to hate his brother.

After Qyburn’s abrupt death and Cersei’s rather sheepish exit we get a reasonably cool-looking fight, and I was even impressed that a suit of armour actually did something this episode (until Sandor forced his sword right through Gregor’s body, at least). Gregor makes the usual big-guy-vs-little-guy mistake of throwing his opponent away instead of hanging on and tearing him apart - say, crushing his eyes like he did with Oberyn...oh wait, then he does!

Throughout the fight, I was convinced that Sandor was going to use the conspicuously burning wall torch behind them to kill Gregor (fire kills wights) and thus bring the story of his fear of fire and the man who gave him that fear full circle. They do sort of imply this by the two of them plunging off the tower into fire, but since Sandor was blind at this point some of the impact of it being a conscious decision was lost. Eventually being destroyed by hatred and revenge does also work as a resolution to Sandor’s arc (even if they quickly-abandoned book ending of him finding peace at a sept would have been more hopeful), assuming that’s what the writers were going for.

Jaime and Cersei - Their death didn’t hit me nearly as hard as it should have; between disappointment at Jaime’s character regression and appeals to motherhood being the only way D&D know to make Cersei seem sympathetic, I just didn’t buy this attempt at last minute redemption.

All in all, one of the better episodes this season, though still hamstrung by the Rian-Johnson-esque scriptwriting. If nothing else, I’m very interested to find out how Dany plans to explain herself in the finale.

Kris

05-14-2019, 02:22 AM

You keep bringing up all those details and I'm wondering why I didn't see all that. It felt like a lot gasps and unexplained details. I didn't even know the white horse was Sandor's.

I dunno what to say, but this season just doesn't feel as strong to me. If ever I'm feeling empty, as though it's hollow and undelivering. I just can't bring myself to even feel anymore and just want it to end.

oh well. One last episode to go I guess

Azazeal849

05-14-2019, 09:42 AM

You keep bringing up all those details and I'm wondering why I didn't see all that. It felt like a lot gasps and unexplained details. I didn't even know the white horse was Sandor's.

I’m pretty sure it was, although I’ve heard some people saying that it was Strickland’s (although that would have no plot relevance whatsoever - unless it wasn’t about the previous owner and they chose a white horse to symbolise Arya’s return to the “light” side).

I’ve also just had Scottie point out a detail that I missed - when the bells are ringing, there are people still screaming in the background at the sight of Dany’s dragon, which is supposed to convey her realisation that these people will never love her and see her as a monster. There are also crows circling in the background, which I assume is symbolism for death, although some people have put their tinfoil hats on and suggested that the final episode will reveal Bran’s presence and possibly influence on events.

Crazywolf

05-14-2019, 02:03 PM

I read a review of the last couple of episodes. Saw kind of a lot of stuff in there I feared would happen but I won't complain since I didn't watch it. It did make me curious though as to what kind of ending GRRM has planned for the books and how much they are actually following his ideas.

Leanna

05-14-2019, 05:13 PM

I believe it is very similar, honestly. GRRM has said as much.

I think the show writers just reeeeeally rushed the end, not giving the character archs (much less the overall plot) the explanations and the time they deserved. I think GRRM will though, so I think the books won’t be disappointing at all... even if it has the same course of events.

Also, the dialogue itself on the show is not as good as it was when they had GRRM’s actual books to reference. Once they hit Winds or Winter territory, the writing (in my opinion) suffered.

So I think it is safe to say that GRRM is the true talent, here.

(Though, major props to the amazing special effect artists, and the cast of very good actors.)

Azazeal849

05-15-2019, 03:12 PM

I can definitely see at least some of the book characters ending in the same places their show counterparts do.

It’s always seemed likely to me that after escaping the Faceless Men, Arya is either going to die completing her list, or recover enough of her identity to reject vengeance and go home to her family (self-destructive revenge and the nature of identity being two big themes running through the books).

Her decision in King’s Landing suggests the latter, and it may even still be the Hound that convinces her - in the books he’s hinted to be alive on an island, atoning for his sins by digging graves, and the septon there tells Brienne that “the Hound” (i.e. his vengeful personality) is dead. Arya might see the similarities between them, just as she does in the show, and then go off to help her family fight the White Walkers.

Dany has always struggled to balance her good heart with her violent impulses. As I mentioned above, there is a lot of foreshadowing in Dany’s final book 5 chapter that she’s going to reject the “mhysa” persona and embrace “fire and blood” - though if she burns a city I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s Meereen rather than King’s Landing. Especially if things there just go to hell in her absence (pro- and anti-Dany factions continue to scheme, the other slaver cities are besieging, and Victarion Greyjoy is about to arrive with the Iron Fleet and a horn which allegedly can control dragons), who could blame her for finally saying “to hell with Meereen” the same way that many book fans already do? Peace is hard, and good deeds aren’t always rewarded. Fire and blood is easy, and they will bend the knee.

I don’t know if “dark Daenerys” will be a transient state or the permanent, tragic fall of a noble-hearted character, but I certainly expect it to be sad. I don’t expect her POV chapters to devolve into the kind of paranoid, delusional psychopathy that we see in Cersei’s. On that subject, I might be seeing patterns where none exist, but I feel like they lifted a few Cersei scenes that didn’t fit for her more sympathetic show counterpart and grafted them onto Dany instead. The scene where Dany begs Jon to keep his true name a secret feels a lot like a book scene between Cersei and Jaime, where she begs him to be her Hand, and he rebuffs her for honour’s sake (and also can’t bring himself to kiss her any more).

In the books Sansa is still in the Vale under an assumed name, and still believes Littlefinger to be her friend (though this isn’t her being unusually naive - unlike his slimy show counterpart, everyone in the books thinks Littlefinger is their friend). She’s currently trying to impress a knight who is next in line to rule the Vale if little Sweetrobin should die. I feel like her outplaying Littlefinger will come sooner than in the show (perhaps after he shows his true colours by arranging Robin’s death), as will her revealing her true identity (she’s definitely let a few too many things slip to a certain minor character, though whether they are her friend or her foe remains to be seen). Indeed I almost felt that the show was going this way when she announced herself to the Vale Lords, to Littlefinger’s evident shock, at the end of season 5, only to row back on all her character development for the Ramsey plot in season 6.

As it is, the plot beats of her riding north with a Vale army (Queen in the North?), establishing herself as the Lady of Winterfell and a savvy political player, and butting heads with foreign overlords, feel like they have a grain of truth to them.

Jaime is one character I can’t actually see ending up in the same place, mainly because book Cersei has none of the redeeming qualities of show Cersei, and Jaime himself is now wise to this. After becoming fed up with her blunders, manipulation and belittling comments, he rides off to try and become something like a proper knight - retaining a certain ruthlessness (his strong-arming of Edmure Tully plays out much as in the show) but much more conscious of his honour and having empathy for others. When Cersei sends him a raven pleading him to help her out of prison and rambling about her love for him, he throws it in the fire.

Maybe Jaime and Cersei will die together as shown in the show, but I expect the circumstances will be very different. Maybe his trial in Winterfell will be mirrored too - the last time we see him in the books, a very battered Brienne rides up with an (obviously fake) story about having found Sansa, seemingly so as to lead him into the clutches of undead Catelyn Stark. Though my gut feeling is he will survive it as in the show, even I don’t dare to guess how that plotline is going to pan out.

Dnafein

05-15-2019, 04:29 PM

I’m pretty sure it was, although I’ve heard some people saying that it was Strickland’s (although that would have no plot relevance whatsoever - unless it wasn’t about the previous owner and they chose a white horse to symbolise Arya’s return to the “light” side).

It wasn't Stranger. Stranger is black, and even if he was covered in dust and ash you'd have caught sight of the darker color underneath whet Arya touched him, and where the blood was. Most likely it was Stricklands, Though I did briefly wonder if it was Dany's

Leanna

05-15-2019, 04:41 PM

@Azazael

Yer. Show Jaime ending was blah. All that great character development, all of his great dialogue, how far he’d come... just to go running back to Cersei like a whipped animal loyal to his master.

He had such great scenes like

Nakey time with Brienne
https://youtu.be/BOpQqVCt-Jc

and

Chitchat with Qyburn
https://youtu.be/JZ6fhp483YU

Sucks that in the end he high-tailed it right back to where he was in the beginning.

But yeah, I don’t have a problem with the resolutions ending up similar with most characters - just think it needs more explanations and time to logically get to those conclusions. The overall concept is there, but the way it was mapped out in the show was sub-par. Again, in my own personal opinion :)

Azazeal849

05-15-2019, 06:02 PM

It wasn't Stranger. Stranger is black, and even if he was covered in dust and ash you'd have caught sight of the darker color underneath whet Arya touched him, and where the blood was. Most likely it was Stricklands, Though I did briefly wonder if it was Dany's

Ah, you’re correct - looking back at episode 4, both Sandor and Arya rode out of Winterfell on black horses. I guess it was just for the “still pure underneath” symbolism.

Kris

05-15-2019, 06:24 PM

I think the horse is mostly a symbol to the type of white horse Dany used to ride.

Leanna

05-15-2019, 06:29 PM

I thought it was symbolic of the white horse of the apocalypse, personally.

It was my immediate thought when I saw that horse, the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

White horse - conquest.

Black horse - famine.

Red horse - war.

Pale horse - plague.

I guess conquest is fitting for Dany. Sort of like Aegon the Conqueror.

Dnafein

05-15-2019, 07:05 PM

Well if your looking for symbolism of the horse were to be dany' s it could be seen as innocence lost. White often being associated with innocence, and there was a part of the Dany who received it as a gift way back in season one.

And using t hat symbolism instead of it being still pure beneath, you could go with innocence found. As Arya having given up her quest for vengeance and witnessing the attack on the city likely no longer sees death and war as exciting and tempting as she did earlier that same episode.

Leanna

05-15-2019, 07:08 PM

Hm, interesting take, Dnafein :)

I think this story is so complex, you really can dig into it for days.

And that's why I think people do mull over it so much.

But I don't think the writer wants to explain its meaning, fully. He probably wants people to mull over it and make their own conclusions.

Dnafein

05-16-2019, 01:11 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA7UQOYskas

Leanna

05-16-2019, 05:07 PM

I tried repping you, Dnafein, but mean RPA won’t let me.

Kris

05-16-2019, 10:15 PM

5kOx0EBXVlc

Dnafein

05-19-2019, 08:36 PM

QCHlCiB98N4

Kris

05-20-2019, 07:20 PM

Okay aside of Sensa getting her way (which I really don't know why. She is so selfish and really really mean), I really enjoyed the ending aside of those small silly details like the fact only the lower area of the cave where Cersi and Jaimy died while everything else survived XD And other really out of the blue details of the Jon able to kill Denny and none of her guards are around to just seize him right there and killed him.

Remember all those emotions I couldn't feel previously at all that death and killing? Once the episode started I really felt it, maybe I just needed a pace which the previous episodes simply didn't let me feel at all (and it being rushed and didn't make sense....)

As a stand alone episode, which other fillers can appear before if they really want to squeeze more, it was really well done.

Danny death was really good too. Seriously. All the talk about the fact love can kill duty and vice versa. Lovely. I could finally actually feel emotions there. Even her dragon picking her up was so good.

Loved the idea of the fact that no actual "ruler" icon was shown in the opening cinematic to show there will not be just one house. Loved the fact that Bran, who is now constantly on a wheel chair, is the man to sit on a very important chair.

Ghost cameo was lovely and the fact Jon was sent to be free on the far north was also a good ending in my book.

Again aside of those really small details (like Sensa... god... I'm surprised all the others countries didn't rebel too right then and there? I mean wtf?!) It was a very well made episode and really good ending with a lot of stuff to lead forward from.

If only everything else that led up to it and the seasons before it were not as terrible... :/ (or the fact we really don't know what Bran did during the night war.... or get real explansion to the night king... Some part of me wanted to see Denny with blue eyes looking at Jon in the background near the ending to show that the night king was back, but that was a wishful thinking I guess XD )

Azazeal849

05-21-2019, 10:43 AM

I’m pleasantly surprised with that finale. It still had a lot of flaws but it was the first episode this season that I more or less mostly liked.

We get a very atmospheric opening, with Jon and Tyrion wandering the ruins. The burned, shell-shocked man plodding past like a walking corpse was eerie as hell. D&D’s preference for no-dialogue scenes is on display yet again, and perhaps goes on slightly too long given that we don’t actually see that big a range of emotions from Jon or Tyrion - if there ever was a time to have these men break down and weep at the horror of war and the pain of a loyal follower who has seen everything they fought for betrayed, this was probably it.

After Grey Worm gets his Nazi on, Tyrion goes to the Red Keep and we get a very nice symbolic shot of the Westeros floor map cracked and covered with ash. Tyrion finding Jaime and Cersei is another non-verbal scene, which was okay, but it might actually have been nice for Tyrion to deliver some kind of goodbye monologue musing on their character journeys and his true feelings for them both (well, Jaime at least...Cersei’s tried to have him killed way too many times. Maybe the irony of her vs Dany instead). The Lannister theme on a slow, sad cello was the perfect accompaniment.

I don’t know if Dany planned to rule from King’s Landing, given how little of it was left, but the long stairway and the seemingly endless ranked soldiers (how many of them should be left exactly? Meh) certainly looked imposing. Drogon raising his wings behind Dani so that she looked like some kind of bat-winged monster was an awesome visual, even if it was about as subtle as we’ve come to expect.

The victory speech being purely in two foreign languages was a good way of emphasising how alien Dany now seems to Tyrion and Jon - some people have compared it to General Hux’s spit-flying rant in The Force Awakens but really I thought it was the same rousing style she had always used; Dany still sees herself as the hero, which is how it should be. Mentioning freeing the people of King’s Landing from a tyrant felt a bit off though, since we’ve seen about five survivors so far and four of them have been executed. I feel like this scene (and a few others in this episode) would hang together a lot more seamlessly with just some minor changes to the bell tower sequence last episode. Perhaps if Dany had merely burned the Red Keep (which dialogue tells us was also full of civilians), and we see the rest of the city alive but in obvious fear, which Dany would recognise if only she stepped out of her ash-shrouded ivory tower. You know, something that would give her at least a fig leaf of justification.

After Tyrion resigns and there’s some more patented D&D overly-long meaningful stares, the scene between Tyrion and Jon is actually pretty good. Kit Harrington conveys a sense of not believing what he’s saying, and is only making excuses for loyalty’s sake, though I’m not sure someone as moral as Jon would really need this extra push to know what was right and wrong - again maybe if Dany had burned the Red Keep with collateral casualties; something less black and white than leveling an entire city after a lull in the fighting where they had clearly surrendered. Meanwhile Tyrion succinctly explains Dany’s character arc, though again several lines would have sounded better if the context had been slightly different. “We cheered her, because they were evil men.” Yes. “Wouldn’t you kill anyone who stood between you and paradise?” Yes but...95% of those people weren’t in the way… And of course “Who is more dangerous than the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?”

I can actually understand Dany’s reasoning on this last one. There really is no rational interpretation of Jon spreading his secret except he does in fact want to be king. By the same token, of course, I don’t understand why Jon told his sisters at all. Ned Stark was just as “honourable” and “honest” and he kept the same secret for seventeen years rather than risk Jon’s life (and a possible civil war). That said, the obvious solution is still a purely political marriage (love - or in this case the lack of it - is the death of duty, Jon…) or Jon simply abdicating. Regarding the latter, was the threat of a massive pro-Jon uprising ever real at all? If so then would they have meekly accepted him being sent to the Wall at the end of the episode? The whole Jon / Aegon plot just kind of got dropped after Dany’s death. In this it goes the same way as a lot of other “prophesy” based plot threads - which would have been okay if the show had gone the same way as the books and explicitly said that prophesies are essentially meaningless, and pursuing one because it’s your “destiny” usually leads to trouble (which would have been a good monologue from Jon when confronted by Grey Worm for killing his dragon queen). As it is, it feels more like they’ve been simply dropped for time.

The callback to Dany’s vision of a ruined throne room in season two was pretty nice, and again the accompanying music is lovely. I appreciated that Dany, in this lonely final scene with Jon, was played as mostly sane and sympathetic again - though by the same token, her attempts to address what happened last episode come across in the same awkwardly meta way as Littlefinger trying to explain his (equally nonsensical) season five actions to Sansa. I would have liked to have seen more from this scene - perhaps Jon bringing in the bones of a burned child so we could contrast Dany’s reaction to when she was presented with the same thing back in Meereen. However, there was still some emotional resonance to the scene, and the fact that Jon was obviously going to kill Dany added to it rather than took away.

I’m not sure how intelligent dragons are supposed to be - I don’t know if Drogon actually understood that Jon had killed Dany and if so why he spared him. Burning down the iron throne was certainly convenient for the themes of the plot, though I interpreted that as Drogon simply lashing out in grief at everything that happened to be nearby, so it’s at least believable. I do feel like they skipped over the aftermath - perhaps because, since I doubt Jon would try (and succeed) to lie his way out of what just happened, there really is no reason why Grey Worm, or whoever found Jon, wouldn’t kill him on the spot.

After that, all that’s left to do is wrap everything up, with Tyrion being hilariously meta (“What unites people? Good stories”) and Sam even more bluntly so later on (“The song of ice and fire”...yeah, revealing it as an in-universe book didn’t work quite as well as in LOTR). Most of the survivors end up in pleasing if not wholly logical places (Bronn on the small council? The Dothraki and Unsullied just...go home?). The final small council scene was a bit cheesy, but to be honest the episode needed some levity after such a bleak season.

I’m not so sure about Jon’s ending - I guess putting him back in the Watch brings him full circle (having achieved nothing...sigh) though I don’t see how Grey Worm or anyone else would see this as a punishment. The White Walkers are gone (as far as anyone knows), there’s peace with the Wildlings, and the Wall is broken anyway. What’s left for the Watch to do now, act as a trading post and visa-stamping service for the Wildlings? Jon probably just spends alternate weeks chilling with Tormund and visiting Sansa in Winterfell. I also don’t get why the Wildlings went “home” north of the Wall again, given that finding a better home south was their whole objective, and it kind of undermines the “stronger than our differences” theme that the show is supposed to be pushing. If the idea was they want to show men going north to “reclaim” the land, what if the permanent winter of the north was just an enchantment of the Night King, and as Jon and his buddies leave the Wall the camera pans up to show a landscape slowly melting into spring? It would explain why the Wildlings don’t want to stay south of the Wall, at least.

No complaints at Sansa becoming queen in the north. She’s fucking earned it at this point. Arya however, seems to turn on a dime this season. Does she want to be with the family she loves? Does she want to be a killer? Or does she want to fulfil that dream she mentioned once while wounded and doped up in Braavos? Ah well, she’s Christopher Columbus now, and I guess we might get a spin-off series out of it.

I liked that Dany’s dream of breaking the wheel was fulfilled to a degree - Sam’s suggestion of a full democracy would be too unbelievable even for this mostly-upbeat ending (though realistic or not, it still irked me to see all those privileged fucks simply laughing him off) so elected kings was a feel-good compromise. Succession in a feudal setting was of course created to avoid the feuds that electing leaders tends to bring, but maybe we’re supposed to hope that they’ve moved past that now.

Slightly surprised that Brienne ended up as Bran’s kingsguard rather than Sansa’s, though again it’s hard to argue she hasn’t earned it - and it was nice to see her try and put a positive spin on Jaime’s butchered character arc in the book.

And now of course, the big one: Bran. Umm...on the one hand I don’t get why Tyrion would think that the metahuman who does nothing but stare creepily and give cryptic speeches with seemingly no real attachment to the humans around him would make a good leader. How much of him is still Bran, and how much is the Three Eyed Raven who answers to the weirwoods, not to any mortal? Of course, if he can act and communicate like a normal person, which the final scenes indicate he can…was this little fucker simply letting things play out in this horrible way so that he could rule? No-one seems to ask these questions. Everyone present (including the randoms who probably have no real familiarity with Bran) simply goes along with it.

Speaking of questions no-one asked, I’m very surprised that Yara and the new Dornish prince didn’t demand their own independence right after Sansa (these two cultures being almost as divergent from the other kingdoms as the North is). At the very least, some of the lords present should have been spit-taking at Bran’s first act being one of blatant favouritism towards his sister. Oh well, they only had so much time to wrap things up, and there would be little benefit in seeding new conflicts now.

The entirety of the plot could have benefitted from being properly played out over more episodes, really. Does anyone know why the decision to shorten seasons 7 and 8 were made? Were there scheduling conflicts for the actors, or were the showrunners simply eager to wrap things up as fast as possible?

Leanna

05-21-2019, 05:54 PM

I really don't get the overwhelming hate for Sansa on the interwebs xD

She is an asshole sometimes, yes. But so is Arya, Tyrion, the Hound, Jaime, Yara, Theon, Ygritte, Tywin, Jorah, Drogo, Bronn, Daenarys (and I mean before she went full psycho on King's Landing), etc.

A LOT of the most beloved characters were assholes when they had to be. Isn't she just trying to survive, just like the rest? Sometimes I wonder if a girly-girl acting like an asshole just particularly grinds people's gears. Or maybe I am missing something.

-shrug-

I was personally quite pleased that Sansa entered a position wherein she was no longer vulnerable or held to the mercy of others. I saw it as her taking control of her own life, and a satisfying contrast to when she was used by everyone else like some pawn.

I also think it honours her parent's (and wider familial) legacy. She really is the only Stark left who can take ownership of Winterfell after the way things panned out (other than Arya, of course, who just flat out did not want to). I also found it interesting to see Sansa's childhood disdain for her home turn into longing for it (something I think a lot of people can empathise with), which ultimately ended with her embracing her roots in adulthood.

I personally think she will be a very good queen, one loved by the northerners—even if she began as a bratty, damaged teenager once upon a time.

@Azazael

I agree that Dany should have only burned the Red Keep... as that would have perfectly aligned with her character development in the show thus far. Perhaps if she only meant to destroy the Keep (with a mind to take down Cersei and the Lannister soldiers), she could acknowledge that she "only" had to kill some of the civilians, i.e. the ones who got in the way of taking down Cersei).

But what if Dany inadvertently set off troves of underground wildfire that Cersei purposely set out all over King's Landing instead? This way, the entire city *still* gets destroyed, but instead of Daenarys going so inexplicably ruthless on innocents with her dragon, the full-on destruction of the city was *technically accidental* and *technically not her fault*.

In other words, collateral damage.

She only meant to target the Red Keep... so she justifies her own actions...

...but you can still point the finger at her. Because she too had an equal part in setting off the domino effect of chaos, which in turn burned them all.

She became a spoke in the wheel that she wanted to "destroy."

This way, I believe the blame could be placed not just on Dany, but on Cersei (deservedly so), and on all in this story who treat the innocent as fodder in their quest for power. The death of King's Landing then could be equally seen as Dany and Cersei's folly, with Cersei being guilty of using innocents as a shield, and Dany guilty of not listening to counsel, or considering the consequences of her ultimate quest.

I dunno. I think that would make more sense. Then afterwards, Dany would easily shrug and blame Cersei (even though her lust for the Iron Throne also inadvertently caused so much death), not realising she too was part of the problem. It would have been more believable to me, but Dany would still be despicable in her quest for power.

Kris

05-22-2019, 12:29 AM

I really don't get the overwhelming hate for Sansa on the interwebs xD

She is an asshole sometimes, yes. But so is Arya, Tyrion, the Hound, Jaime, Yara, Theon, Ygritte, Tywin, Jorah, Drogo, Bronn, Daenarys (and I mean before she went full psycho on King's Landing), etc.

An asshole without charm... passive, manipulative, using the victories of others as her own. And people calling her wise is very irksome. Mainly after the bad writers forced her into a horrible marriage after she almost got the vale (In the book someone else was sent for the marriage) just so that they could get an extra vibe out of the viewers.... while no one said anything when Dany was raped right on the first episodes....

Sansa is not symbol of power. She is the perfect example of lady in distress that needs to be saved. That cannot react without power behind her, and she gained it only by standing in the background and using manipulations. I mean even Cersi was far more into action than she was.

I just didn't like her. I couldn't even feel much sorry for her when all her decision were clearly made out of selfish needs or stupid thinking. Now I get it she suppoes to be a child, it's just that when everyone else starting to grew she stays the same as she is.

If she was to be the queen of the 7 kingdoms she would have never made the north free, and that's just show how much she cares more about hereslf and her power than the actual kingdom under her. Her brother was just elected, so she uses it as a card to draw power, caring little if it will cause other people to rebel or not. I also really disliked how she kept talking to Bran as if he was not there "He doesn't want it". I mean come on, let him speak...

Anyway, I really just don't like her, and her winning her way without doing much kinda makes me rethink the whole idea of what the show actually wanted to tell in the end. Like no matter how heroic you are it doesn't matter because at the end those that stand in the side and do nothing get their way? I dunno, feels like a bad writing...

Anyway, this is my opinion XD Maybe she will do good job as queen, I don't know. I just really think that how they built her in the last 2 seasons has done nothing to make me think of her as worthy... if anything, it felt like the writer forced me to see that they wanted me to think of her as wise and capable when she was really not.

EDIT:

What the hell happened to Arya's horse? XD

.Karma.

05-22-2019, 03:27 AM

Like no matter how heroic you are it doesn't matter because at the end those that stand in the side and do nothing get their way?

What part of any season of this show made you think being a 'hero' mattered in the slightest?

If you were looking for the heroes to come out on top and happy endings for the characters you enjoyed... I think you probably chose the wrong show.

Just as a side note. I dislike Sansa, but... I think it absolutely made sense and was good of Sansa to ask for Northern independence. If you don't ask, the answer will always be no. Not asking the question would have been worse than asking. I didn't like the character in general, but I know I'm biased. There is probably literally nothing she could have done, any decision she could have made that would have made me like her.

So what decision could she have made that would have made you alter your opinion of her?

If she doesn't ask then she is weak. She just sits back after all that talk of wanting a free North and does nothing? Or she asks and she's being hard on her brother. I don't think you've given any option here at all for her to be redeemable in your eyes. If she asks, she is selfish cause she knows Bran is her brother and she's using that to get their independence and doesn't care that others may also rebel. If she doesn't ask, she's selfish and not thinking of her people that she has promised independence and a ruler of the North. She's only thinking that she is better off with her brother not being angry with her. There is no winning.

Kris

05-22-2019, 07:51 AM

I don't expect heroes, but I expect writing to be better than what it showed.
Also Sansa didn't ask, she stated a fact.

Crazywolf

05-22-2019, 10:10 AM

Personally I just wish they could have made a final 2 seasons with decent writing - and from reviews I've read the writing in this season wasn't any better than the last one. evidently the writers could do an ok job at copying but it still annoys me how little they actually understood the setting they'd been writing about and the things that made the story good.

Kris

05-22-2019, 11:05 AM

They should have probably waited until all the books were out before starting this, I think XD either way the writers of the show were in a hurry to get it done and moved on, they should have let others to continue them instead of doing this rush ride that had some many wtf moments.

I won't be surprised if once all the books are out and printed the show will be remade in the future.

Scottie

05-22-2019, 11:08 AM

I don't expect heroes, but I expect writing to be better than what it showed.
Also Sansa didn't ask, she stated a fact.

I actually preferred that she didn't ask for permission. Like you said, she stated a fact. The North had been Independent for so many years and she was saying they were going to remain independent. Simple as. I think her asking would have made her look weak and even more passive than some of you think.

I like Sansa. I liked her throughout the series. It was nice to see a female character that survived this world when she wasn't street smart, trained to be a killer or had killer dragons with her. She went through a whole bunch of shit and I'm really happy that she got to where she is now.

I do agree with you CrazyWolf, it would have been nice if they had extended it but I've heard that it wasn't possible for so many reasons. They did the best with the time that they had. I really enjoyed the ending.

The series started with the Starks. It threw them through all kinds of shit and (those that survived) have evolved and are now successful and happy :)

Crazywolf

05-22-2019, 01:34 PM

I do agree with you CrazyWolf, it would have been nice if they had extended it but I've heard that it wasn't possible for so many reasons. They did the best with the time that they had. I really enjoyed the ending.

I actually meant they should have better-written this season and the previous one. Extending it could have helped as well maybe though it's kinda hard for me to judge as I didn't see the last episodes. either way though the main thing to actually kill it for me was the standard of the writing.

Leanna

05-22-2019, 06:17 PM

I don't expect heroes, but I expect writing to be better than what it showed.
Also Sansa didn't ask, she stated a fact.

Really good points, Kris.

I don’t even particularly like the character of Sansa, either. I’m just neutral on her. But if I was a citizen of Westeros (lol), I would prefer a snobby brat who does not abuse other human beings over a woman of action who does. Yes, she is selfish and manipulative and says things that make you want to throw a pie in her face. But she is not cruel.

And yeah, a lot of it was sort of lazy, rushed writing. (In fairness, they wrote and produced what was practically an 80 hour film, and it still was not sufficient for how complex the story is.) Though the crazy long story of LOTR was told in nine hours, I suppose? I guess it didn’t have as many subplots / plot webs going on though.

Interesting to hear other opinions anyway :)

I wonder if GRRM himself will be able to untangle this web he has woven xD

Kris

05-22-2019, 06:56 PM

I saw an interview with him where he stated he needed to do time skip of 10 years, but he knew he won't be able to pull it right so instead he wrote more books of GoT to know exactly what was going on with them.

Again, I don't expect this level of details and thinking from a show or movie. but...

Anyway, I think maybe it's best next time for scripters and show adaptar to wait untill the books are out XD

Leanna

05-22-2019, 07:08 PM

Omg, totally. The storytelling took a total nosedive once they didn’t have any source material as a crutch.

Crazywolf

05-22-2019, 07:51 PM

It sure did.

Holeypaladin

05-23-2019, 01:03 AM

The entire final season was just... terribly written. In this information age where so many of us write as a hobby, we, the audience, tend to demand a much higher level of writing than television writers could get away with back in the 1980s, yet we see so many old-school writers who don't even try to be consistent with the original source material, and still use the 80/20 rule to assume their audience is completely moronic... and in this case, it definitely shows.

Having not read the books, I can only point out the inconsistency between the previous seasons and the final season... and there are many. It was quite clear that Arya, the fan favorite, was going to go around murderating all of her family's endings... starting with feeding that old man his own children in a previous season, and ending with brutally murderating Circe in a very creative manner. Instead, the only kill she gets this entire season is far outside her original role... Jon Snow was supposed to be the one to kill the Night King, using his magical unobtainium steel sword, as it was foreshadowed so many times in previous seasons. But having a creature of ice survive the full force of flame wyvern breath at point blank is just... terrible, terrible writing. If an obsidian dagger can kill it, then napalm breath that can somehow magically tear down castle walls would simply disintegrate the thing.

After seeing the ending to the Night King arc, I noted that pretty much everyone in all of the northern and foreign armies had been killed in battle, leaving them without any sort of manpower to face the Targaryens down at King's Landing. But suddenly, with the Unsullied having suffered some 80% casualties and the Dothraki having suffered 100% casualties, the entire freaking armies of both of them somehow magically respawn in order to lay siege to King's Landing, which makes no freaking sense. The ballistae shoot down a flame wyvern (they're not dragons, as dragons have four legs, period), and tear through ships with more power than cannons (there's a reason cannon replaced ballistae... ballistae are simply not that powerful), but the following episode they take a lesson in Storm Trooper marksmanship and miss every shot.

Then of course, there's the episode where this magically respawned army lays waste to King's Landing, with Danny acting completely out of character. It has been shown in previous episodes that she can win the hearts and love of just about everyone, like Jon Snow but moreso, and she already did so with the pirate girl. Somehow, her charisma score is now divided by three, with everyone hating her instead of loving her this season, except for those who had come to love her in previous seasons.

It was quite clear from ALL of the foreshadowing that Jon Snow and Daenarys were supposed to marry and rule over the seven kingdoms together. She even dumped her previous sex toy with the explanation of "Once I get to Westeros, I'll need to get married," yet such marriage concepts are completely forgotten this season, despite having no better prospect than "This dude is loved in the North, marrying him would unite and solidify your rule over Winterfell and peace with the Wildlings, and by the way, you're in love with him too." Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if his identity as her nephew isn't revealed until AFTER they're married... but the Targaryens always viewed incest as wincest, so it would be completely within the character of their household.

Other ridiculous aspects include the way Arya is turned into a Mary Sue with plot armor and the ability to magically spawn a white horse (and to think she used to be one of my favorites...), Sansa claiming that getting raped made her stronger, and the utter lunacy of having a democracy suggested to a feudal culture... no one would ever think to let peasants vote, and the closest they'd get would be a Venetian style trade republic... which only worked for a city-state rather than a kingdom. The elective monarchy wouldn't work at all for a government like the Seven Kingdoms... once Sansa claims independence for Winterfell, other kingdoms would follow suit, especially Dorn and the Iron Islands, who were shown as far more fiercely independent than Winterfell ever was. Seven kingdoms would quickly become four, and another war of unification would follow shortly after... just as happened in China every single time the land was divided. The only long-lasting example of an elective monarchy was the Holy Roman Empire... in which the Emperor had basically zero power most of the time, and the tiny fiefdoms bickered, killed each other and repeatedly seized each other's castles, and gave rise to numerous robber knights.

Oh and then at the very end, in accordance to the tradition of magically respawning soldiers and horses, the Wall itself magically respawns in the final scene. Just... terrible writing. Absolutely terrible.

Azazeal849

05-23-2019, 12:11 PM

I like Sansa. I liked her throughout the series. It was nice to see a female character that survived this world when she wasn't street smart, trained to be a killer or had killer dragons with her. She went through a whole bunch of shit and I'm really happy that she got to where she is now.

I agree - I like the message that it’s equally valid for women to wield power in a traditionally “feminine” way (Sansa, Catelyn, Cersei as the evil flipside), or a traditionally “masculine” way (Brienne, Arya), or a mixture of both (Dany).

The showrunners of course didn’t do a perfect job of this - most notably, the only sympathetic “feminine” trait they tended to emphasise was motherhood (Catelyn is more deferring to Ned and Robb than in the books, and all of her decisions tend to be made through the lens of motherhood...Karsi was made female because they thought only a female character would be sympathetic and convincing when talking about losing children and wanting to save others...whenever they want Cersei or a minor female character to look sympathetic, they have them talk about their children etc) but they at least kept the basic message.

Likewise I feel like Sansa’s character was mishandled at a lot of points, but you can see the basic idea:

Season 1 (corresponding to book 1) she’s a naive little girl and is punished for it by more ruthless characters.

Season 2 to 4 (book 2 / 3) she’s surviving but still being used as a pawn, although she does get some small victories that are purely hers (she persuades Joffrey to spare Ser Dontos, she befriends the Hound who nearly helped her escape). She wins these victories by her traits of quick thinking and empathy. They did throw in a few aggravating scenes where she still acts like naive season 1 Sansa, but in general the progression is there.

Season 5 (book 4) she’s learning the game from Littlefinger, while still displaying her empathy (she’s the only one who can reason with Sweetrobin). At the end she outplays Littlefinger by revealing who she is to the Vale lords, claiming their support and taking control of her own destiny.

Season 6 (no book equivalent)...the ball gets dropped. Seemingly unsure what to do with Sansa next, they recycle a book plot and shoehorn her into marrying Ramsey - not only does this make little sense within the story, it also forces them to wind Sansa back to her “pawn” phase of trusting Littlefinger and repeat last season’s character arc. While Ramsey’s end was well deserved (and about a season overdue…), Sansa’s ability to read and persuade people takes a backseat to her more “badass” ability to be ruthless. Her victories are also less unambiguously her own (she needs Littlefinger to get the Vale army that should have been hers last season). And, it goes without saying, D&D should not have chosen rape as a vehicle for character growth - or rather as a key to unlock “strength”. Just...don’t do that.

Season 7 (no book equivalent) shows her as leader material - managing the castle etc - although it gets ham-fisted at points (forced conflict between the Starks, repeating “I am the Lady of Winterfell” ad nauseum) and she takes a bit of a backseat compared to Jon.

By season 8 she’s looking out for the whole North. I do think it’s a shame they didn’t show her leadership for anything other than conflict with Dany (in episode 3 she could have been giving orders like Lyanna was, and / or looking after people in the crypts instead of just telling Tyrion that they need to accept their impotence). But if you squint you can at least see the outline of the character arc GRRM gave to the showrunners: pawn → player → queen in the north, all through traditionally “feminine” strengths.

The series started with the Starks. It threw them through all kinds of shit and (those that survived) have evolved and are now successful and happy :)

Yep - although one of GoT’s most famous lines is “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention”, at its heart it’s a show about playing with and deconstructing fantasy tropes. While sometimes this leads to bad outcomes or evil characters winning, I wouldn’t say it’s a show that’s explicitly out to crush people’s naive notions of hope. People can still get happy and satisfying endings.

It was quite clear that Arya, the fan favorite, was going to go around murderating all of her family's endings... starting with feeding that old man his own children in a previous season, and ending with brutally murderating Circe in a very creative manner. Instead, the only kill she gets this entire season is far outside her original role…

The showrunners fucked things up for themselves here. Arya was always going to have to choose between being “Arya Stark” and “No One” - a member of a pack or a lone wolf, a human or a cold, merciless killer. GRRM evidently told them that in the end it would be the former, but by playing up her “badass assassin” credentials all the way into season 7, they made it more difficult to go back the other way.

Season 7 kind of resolved the issue, with the Stark girls standing together after the forced conflict and Littlefinger’s season-overdue death, but then they muddied the waters again in season 8 by having Arya go off to complete her list without her family, only to reject vengeance for a second time at the last moment.

Revenge is an incredibly cathartic thing, which is why a character consciously choosing to let it go is so significant. They could have made a pretty powerful statement about family and revenge with Arya in season 8, and it wouldn’t have needed her to become a pacifist either - she could still have joined her family in taking down Cersei, but for a bigger reason than her List. Either way, I feel like Arya’s choice deserved more focus, even within the constraints of a shortened season.

After seeing the ending to the Night King arc, I noted that pretty much everyone in all of the northern and foreign armies had been killed in battle, leaving them without any sort of manpower to face the Targaryens down at King's Landing. But suddenly, with the Unsullied having suffered some 80% casualties and the Dothraki having suffered 100% casualties, the entire freaking armies of both of them somehow magically respawn in order to lay siege to King's Landing, which makes no freaking sense.

Scottie pitched a rather good explanation for this, which was that Dany had some of her forces elsewhere (holding down castles, guarding the road north in case of a betrayal by Cersei etc). I don’t normally like writing the showrunners’ story for them to excuse lazy plotting, but in this case they could have closed the plot hole with just a single line of dialogue in the map table scene - instead of saying “we’ve only got half our forces left”, they should have said something like “we’ve recalled the southern garrisons for the march on King’s Landing, but we still have barely half the men we had before”.

Then of course, there's the episode where this magically respawned army lays waste to King's Landing, with Danny acting completely out of character. It has been shown in previous episodes that she can win the hearts and love of just about everyone, like Jon Snow but moreso, and she already did so with the pirate girl. Somehow, her charisma score is now divided by three, with everyone hating her instead of loving her this season, except for those who had come to love her in previous seasons.

Again, you can see the outline that GRRM gave them if you squint: she tries to be the mhysa, it’s too hard, she embraces “fire and blood” instead and becomes increasingly focused on her prophesised destiny instead of the people caught in the crossfire. She’s clearly never meant to be “the mad queen” (that was supposed to be Cersei) so much as “the well-intentioned extremist queen”.

We can see her budding destiny obsession addressed (albeit somewhat shallowly) in season 7 - hence “bend the knee” ad nauseum - so her tension with the Northmen and lack of decent PR efforts compared to previous seasons do make a degree of sense, but D&D really wrote themselves into a corner trying to play her final descent into villainy as a twist rather than a tragic progression. A few scenes with Dany herself rather than Tyrion and Varys simply talking about her might have helped, as would...literally any framing of the King’s Landing massacre except a one-sided victory followed by an obvious surrender followed by unprovoked genocide.

And I still think they could have presented Dany with the bones of a King’s Landing child to show how her mindset has changed since the last time she was confronted with the same thing.

It was quite clear from ALL of the foreshadowing that Jon Snow and Daenarys were supposed to marry and rule over the seven kingdoms together.

Well, see above for my take on Dany being supposed to end up where she did (albeit not by such a rushed route), but I do feel that Jon was destined for more.

Part of it is the showrunners’ fault, since they explicitly said it just “felt right” to have Arya rather than Jon (or indeed a team of characters) vanquish the Night King - a sentiment I can believe when these guys are also on record as saying that “themes are for 8th grade book reports”. The other part is...also the showrunners’ fault, since the writing of the conflict between Dany and Jon is forced mostly through Varys fretting about incest (I’m unclear on what Westeros actually thinks of this, because people are clearly disgusted by Cersei and Jaime, and may have felt the same about the old Targaryens if they’d dared to speak out, but after deposing Cersei Dany would have essentially been able to say “deal with it” the same way her predecessors did) rather than through Jon and Dany themselves.

Which is a shame, because a marriage which would be real for Dany but merely political for Jon (he clearly can’t get past the mental block once he knows Dany is his aunt) would have brought back his perennial conflict of love (in this case a lack thereof) vs duty. I would have liked the last few episodes to get inside Jon’s head more and show Kit Harrington acting rather than merely emoting - the kind of non-verbal scenes that D&D love but most of the filmmaking community call out as hollow “oscar bait” when they’re not paired with strong character building.

the utter lunacy of having a democracy suggested to a feudal culture... no one would ever think to let peasants vote, and the closest they'd get would be a Venetian style trade republic... which only worked for a city-state rather than a kingdom.

Actually, the concept of a “house of commons” goes back a lot further than you might think (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_de_Montfort%27s_Parliament). It didn’t surprise me that the lords laughed at the idea, though I was a little disappointed that they simply moved on afterwards (Dany’s remaining followers might have had some input). On the other hand, I have also heard the theory that the takeaway message is supposed to be “elites fear democracy” rather than “that’s too idealistic for Westeros, silly” - but again that might be giving D&D too much credit.

Holeypaladin

05-23-2019, 09:50 PM

Without getting involved in a political debate involving the pros and cons of Democracy... elites have every right to fear a democratic system, as merchants, nobles, and everyone with money and power according to the old system will always be in the 49%, rather than the 51% that, as Thomas Jefferson said, has the ability to strip the rights from the other 49%.

The evolution of the English parliament is an interesting point, actually. It started when King John, the second worst monarch in English history, signed the Magna Carta, which was the first step in turning England from an absolute monarchy into a constitutional monarchy. I could see the council of lords proposing something similar to a Magna Carta after seeing how tyrannical the absolute monarchy of the seven kingdoms was... but suggesting democracy is like going from A to Z and skipping all the steps between (with Magna Carta being step B, House of Lords being C, and House of Commons being D or E).

Dnafein

05-24-2019, 03:12 AM

Oh and then at the very end, in accordance to the tradition of magically respawning soldiers and horses, the Wall itself magically respawns in the final scene. Just... terrible writing. Absolutely terrible.

You do realize that the wall runs the length of the continent and the section of it that was destroyed was no where near Castle Black right? The dragon didn't destroy the whole wall only a section (one near eastwatch-by-the-sea i believe.) In fact if you watch the opening sequence again you can see the wall standing on either side of the hole in it.

Azazeal849

05-24-2019, 05:36 PM

I could see the council of lords proposing something similar to a Magna Carta after seeing how tyrannical the absolute monarchy of the seven kingdoms was... but suggesting democracy is like going from A to Z and skipping all the steps between (with Magna Carta being step B, House of Lords being C, and House of Commons being D or E).

Well, there wasn’t really a lords / commons division in these early proto-parliaments; the Oxford Parliament of 1258 was just 15 barons, but the one in 1265 contained ordinary knights and city representatives also.

Westeros doesn’t map exactly to any particular period of feudal Europe, though regional lords can evidently already exercise quite a large degree of autonomy, as well as influence over the regency (via the Small Council etc). While we don’t get to see Sam explain what he means by “everyone” - and it’s possible that he was being literal, ala the Lord Commander elections in the Watch (which, true, wouldn’t really be workable in such a big country where people are used to their leaders simply being instead of picking them) - something like a senate or great council wouldn’t be totally beyond imagining. Particularly after the populist Sparrows and Dany’s followers have left their mark on the country, and the last four or five monarchs in a row have been overwhelmingly crap. A head of state elected by the great lords is probably the least they could do at this point.

Though, still - the need to wrap up the story aside - god knows why everyone picked Bran (especially the ones who don’t know who he is) or why Dorne and the Iron Islands didn’t petition for their own independence too.

You do realize that the wall runs the length of the continent and the section of it that was destroyed was no where near Castle Black right? The dragon didn't destroy the whole wall only a section (one near eastwatch-by-the-sea i believe.) In fact if you watch the opening sequence again you can see the wall standing on either side of the hole in it.

Yep - although there’s still two relevant issues:

1) The Watch’s original mission of “guarding the realms of men” from wildlings and White Walkers is now defunct, since they have peace with the former and have apparently destroyed the latter. Granted some wildlings might still be inclined to raid across into the North, but that was supposed to be the point of the (forgotten by the show) agreement to let them settle and farm the Gift. Then again, the final scene shows a plant growing amid the snow, so perhaps North of the Wall is going to be a lot more habitable now the Walkers’ influence is gone.

That said, Jon’s exile to the now-defunct Watch could be read as simply a legal loophole (hell, the Watch is staffed mostly by Wildlings at this point) and he’s now free to head off with Tormund and co, as the last scene shows. He’s probably welcome back in Winterfell too from time to time (as Benjen Stark was), especially since the North is self-governing now anyway.

2) If the Watch are to continue to man the Wall against...something, it’ll take considerably more manpower and resources now that there’s a gaping hole near Eastwatch. I’m not sure if they even have the capability in the modern age to rebuilt the Wall totally; nevermind the anti-Walker spells that were apparently woven into it.